[kiwichick]

no

the aus gov stopped the live export of cattle to indonesia due to the treatment of the cattle in indonesia

the trade is now in the process of being restarted

[SeaGypsy]

and your point is?

[kiwichick]

reply to sixstrings question

[Sixstrings]

Florida Tea Party declares manatees are part of UN conspiracy

A Citrus County tea party group has announced that it's fighting new restrictions on boating and other human activities in Kings Bay that have been proposed by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

"We cannot elevate nature above people," explained Edna Mattos, 63, leader of the Citrus County Tea Party Patriots, in an interview. "That's against the Bible and the Bill of Rights."
http://www.tampabay.com/news/environment/wildlife/tea-party-members-tackle-a-new-issue-manatees/1180112

I wrote a long response, but I'm getting too over the top on this issue so this a re-write. I'll just let Tea Party Edna's statement stand for itself:

"We cannot elevate nature above people," explained Edna Mattos, 63, leader of the Citrus County Tea Party Patriots, in an interview. "That's against the Bible and the Bill of Rights."

Sigh.

There are only 3200 manatees left in the Untied States. Because of protection, this bay they're talking about had a population rise from 100 to 500. People should be happy about that, not clamoring to get out in their motorboat and run over a densely packed herd of endangered animals.

Getting back to Australia.. stop hunting your sea cows and sea turtles. These are endangered animals, it's not right.

[Sixstrings]

I like Manatees too, that's why I refuse to eat it even when offered by a tribal chief, which causes serious insult to their traditional sensibilities. Likewise turtle. I have however eaten/ crocodile, kangaroo, emu, lots of different kinds of fish. When in the city I am virtually vegan, but this is not possiible in the remote north.

I've eaten deep fried gator tail nuggets. Tastes like crap. Stringy and salty. Thing is, precisely because we've protected gators they're not endangered anymore. And the American buffalo.. our federal government saved it from extinction. Now we have enough for ranching and it's on the menu in restaurants. The issue here isn't hunting and consumption bur rather knowing when to stop so that the species can recover.

I don't care if an indigenous culture can't understand that concept. These animals belong to all of humanity, not just them. Their indigenous culture isn't superior to any other culture.

Bottom line.. how endangered are your dugongs and sea turtles. If you have enough of them then I can understand why you still allow hunting. I could never eat a sea mammal, but I could eat turtle soup if it's not endangered and the turtle was killed humanely (just as I want my beef and chicken killed humanely, and ideally raised in humane conditions).

From what I've read, the way they're killing the sea cows is excessively cruel. It's 2011.. most of the world's cultures are shifting towards getting away from unnecessary cruelty to animals. Even in China, there was a spontaneous protest recently where motorists got out and blocked a truckload of dogs headed for the butcher. They raised money and bought the dogs and found them homes. So if Chinese culture can change like this, why can't aboriginal? Just because a culture is old does not make it right and does not mean it can't change and progress.

Primarily by making use of engine driven craft to get at these species completely illegal.

I'm okay with 100% traditional methods, if they're also living a mostly traditional lifestyle. From what I've read / seen about aboriginals, they appear to have lost a lot of their culture. It's like a Native American getting in his pickup truck, wearing blue jeans, and going out to shoot a buffalo "because that's his heritage." Well if the buffalo is endangered then he shouldn't have that right. Native cultures can't live 75% in the modern world yet reject modern morality when it suits them.

[Pretorian]

This sounds like the best sort of food in a survival situation. I will keep them in mind down the road.

They're going extinct Cog, it's not funny.

Yes, it was. It was hilarious and made me spit out my breakfast baby harp seal burger.

Interestingly, these are the same people who will demand immediate attention, whine and squeal any time when something is happening to them or their own.

[Fishman]

I wonder, is the Australian liberal similar to the American liberal, Cowgirl/Chickenlipped/Peckerless? It believes it can obtain an imaginary Post-Modern Disneyland Time-Warp, peopled by a workers utopia, where one does not have to work and the government takes care of all your needs. No successful examples exist

Oy mite! Put a dugong on the barbie. I agree with Six, if the population can be sustained, make mine well done mate!

Interestingly, these are the same people who will demand immediate attention, whine and squeal any time when something is happening to them or their own, but a green weinie will quietly sit while something is happening to them or theirs? Either an implied false statement, or green weinies are ecologically destined to becomes as extinct as some species of sea cows.

[Sixstrings]

I wonder, is the Australian liberal similar to the American liberal, Cowgirl/Chickenlipped/Text deleted.

What you see here are two distinct liberal values in conflict with each other. Liberals are generally keen on protecting the enviornment, endangered species, etc.

But they're also keen on protecting endangered cultures.. the conflict comes when the indigenous people trample over other liberal values. How far do you go to protect indigenous culture.. is it ok for them to be cruel to animals? Just because they're indigenous, is cruelty to women ok too?

In other words, it's an issue of moral relativism vs. absolutism. If you're a relativist then anything goes, indigenous people can eat their turtles and dugongs as cruely as they like and it's all excused because they're indigenous.

I'm more of a moral absolutist. I think standards of right and wrong do evolve over time, hopefully for the better. So IMHO there's enough world consensus at this point that it's fair to be an absolutist and tell the aboriginals they can't hunt endangered animals, and the hunting they do must be reasonably humane.

Canada's another example of how liberalism can get twisted up. "Indigenous rights" are used as cover for very cruel and way too massive seal hunting:

How many seals have been killed?
In 2005 alone 317672 seals were reported killed. This does not include seals which were abandoned or which slipped into icy waters. The number since the year 2000 is over 1 million.
Are seals consumed or eaten?
In the commercial seal hunt, no part of the seal is consumed or eaten. The seal pelts are sold to fashion houses.

Is the hunt performed by aboriginals?
While aboriginals hunt seals in Canada, this is a small number and is unrelated to the commercial Canadian seal hunt. No one is opposing aboriginal hunting. Commercial sealers like to confuse the public by throwing the word aboriginals around. They are not aboriginals. They are white men that live as you do, they own houses, garages, automobiles, they watch movies, and they shop at the local mall and buy food in supermarkets.
http://www.canadiansealhunt.com/faq.html

It's weird, otherwise enlightened and developed nations will find all kinds of excuses to hunt endangered animals. Japan is killing endangered whales right now, "for scientific purposes" even though that's a blatant lie they're killing whales to eat them.

Our crazy Tea Party aside, this is one area that Americans can be proud that we're so far ahead of the rest of the world. In the US, we protect endangered species. We don't hunt marine mammals. And we know the difference between right and wrong and that wrong is still wrong even if a native person does it.

[babystrangeloop]

Do not believe in their helplessness, it is a myth. They are completely self-sufficient.

What I mean is that they're helpless against human predators. They're vegetarian, no aggression, they won't defend themselves and can't swim fast enough to get away.

Evolution produced those sea cows and evolution will guide them! It's not a problem. Give them a few months, they will mutate into mad sea cow disease or something. Now transmuted, they swiftly escape as Nature escapes.

See how well this worked for the lowly ape:

Did anyone complain about the ape being hunted to extinction? It just had to learn to repeat God's name until it was saved. Sea cows will be saved too by this practice.

[Fishman]

Cog, I must disagree. They breed too slow at present. Perhaps we could breed them for more rapid reproduction. Not sure how I feel about genetic engineering them. If we could get them to crank out little sea cows at a better rate they would make sort of an aquatic permaculture. That should make Six happy
Once the HUMAN has a defective arrogant gene kick in and thinks it becomes a "special" HUMAN then it is labeled a liberal or democrat and will certainly starve to death if not sustained by those it calls sub human.

[Cog]

Sixstrings might have to adjust his moral standards a bit when TSHTF. Hunger has a way of making that happen. In the meantime, the idea of vast ranches of sea cows with cowboys(seaboys?) bringing the herd to market has a certain appeal. Maybe we could train dolphins to herd them around and make them earn their keep as a protected species.

[Expatriot]

Getting back to Australia.. stop hunting your sea cows and sea turtles. These are endangered animals, it's not right.

Moral relativism. Killing unborn infants isn't right either.

I could give a rat's ass less about any endangered species on this planet. If you can put aside (nod to GCarlin) your desperate attempt to save your own habitat, you'd see that these species are all temporary anyway. No species that was alive a billion years ago is here today. No species alive today will be alive in a billion years.

The only rational purpose behind caring about sea cows and such is because you want to protect your habitat, and you find the sea cows a cutesy part of your habitat. They'll die anyway. You just don't want them to die on your watch. Very selfish of you.

[Pretorian]

Interestingly, these are the same people who will demand immediate attention, whine and squeal any time when something is happening to them or their own, but a green weinie will quietly sit while something is happening to them or theirs?

I don't know what greenie weinies got to do with anything that I said. I suppose that rough and tough bible guys like you should be able to take a hit without running back under a momma's skirt and calling for 911 from under there? Unlike greenie weines? No?

[Pretorian]

Getting back to Australia.. stop hunting your sea cows and sea turtles. These are endangered animals, it's not right.

Moral relativism. Killing unborn infants isn't right either.

There is no such thing as an unborn infant, never was and never will be. You should sign up for a free English course ( it will also help keeping funds being wasted on immigrants).

Also,statistically speaking, many of those "unborn infants" , could develop into cogs and fishermen, so hurrying them back into oblivion is not just "right" , it's GOOD. Think about how many living beings they are not going to kill throughout their lives.

I could give a rat's ass less about any endangered species on this planet. If you can put aside (nod to GCarlin) your desperate attempt to save your own habitat, you'd see that these species are all temporary anyway. No species that was alive a billion years ago is here today. No species alive today will be alive in a billion years.

The only rational purpose behind caring about sea cows and such is because you want to protect your habitat, and you find the sea cows a cutesy part of your habitat. They'll die anyway. You just don't want them to die on your watch. Very selfish of you.

I would assume that you are a rational person, and you do understand that you and all your bloodline will be dead well before a tiny fraction of that billion years ( unlike bloodline of many, many species that were alive a billion years ago). So, since you and yours are going to die anyhow, and your monies and property will be used by others anyway, does it make any sense for you to spend
time and effort to delay the inevitable? You should be putting that time and effort into guarding vaginas, so they don't kill any more "unborn babies".

[sparky]

.
Australia is a bit too much sometimes
there always is some weird stuff going on in the tropics

Dog bite shark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-Dh78GgP4I

[Sixstrings]

Evolution produced those sea cows and evolution will guide them! It's not a problem. Give them a few months, they will mutate into mad sea cow disease or something.

Evolutionary process isn't fast enough to respond to overwhelming threat, that's when a species goes extinct. If the threat is gradual and the population large enough, then yes over hundreds of thousands / millions of years a species may evolve into something more survivable.

Since I won't live for millions of years and can't wait for new species to evolve, I'd kind of like to preserve the wildlife we have.

[Sixstrings]

.
Australia is a bit too much sometimes
there always is some weird stuff going on in the tropics

Dog bite shark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-Dh78GgP4I

That's the vid I started the thread with.

Looking at the comments now.. lot of people are outraged over the speared sea cow queued up for the barbie:

Dugongs are protected under Australian law. I hope you get charged for that one moron. There are other things more suitable for the dinner plate aside from animals that are threatened species.

[Sixstrings]

Sixstrings might have to adjust his moral standards a bit when TSHTF. Hunger has a way of making that happen.

People have never needed sea cows for food. It's just convenient. That's why the biggest one, steller's sea cow, went extinct in Alaska. It was just too easy pickings for sailors.. they're slow pokes, they won't and dive or try to get away like a whale will. Now they're gone forever:



Bottom line.. humans are just too damn good of an apex predator. We've got to restrain ourselves or we'll ruin the whole planet.

[Cog]

Evolution should have given them some poison spines or sharp teeth if they were meant to survive. I like my place on the food chain, as its better to eat than be eaten.