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THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 19 Jul 2022, 16:17:46

Doly wrote:
What are the emissions from burning wood? Not that different to burning coal I would assume.


If you keep growing trees in the land you use for wood, it doesn't matter what the emissions are because the new trees absorb the carbon that was put in the atmosphere when you burned the old trees. That's why climate change was never an issue till we started burning fossil fuels.

But how much wood chip is to be had?


Not a lot, that's why people started using coal in the first place.

Correct compared to the world demand for energy.
It is sometimes stated that one of the causes of the fall of the Roman empire is that they ran out of wood within reasonable transporting distance from Rome.
The heating systems to heat the baths and villas was very inefficient. You have to wonder why they did not turn the engineers that built the viaducts and roads onto the problem.
Also England really needed to come to North America because they were running out of timber for their ships especially the tall mast trees.
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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 11 Aug 2022, 17:30:18

Why Renewables Advocates Protect Fossil Fuel Interests, Not The Climate

Everybody from Greenpeace to student activist Greta Thunberg to Green New Dealer Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (AOC) says we have to transition from fossil fuels to renewables in order to save the climate.

But if solar and wind are substitutes for fossil fuels, why are the world’s biggest oil and gas firms promoting them?

Over the last three years, the five largest publicly-traded oil and gas companies, ExxonMobil, Royal Dutch Shell, Chevron, BP, and Total invested a whopping one billion dollars into advertising and lobbying for renewables and other climate-related ventures.

Their ad blitz has targeted the global elite in airports and on Twitter. “Natural gas is the perfect partner for renewables,” say airport ads run by Norwegian oil and gas giant Statoil. “See why #natgas is a natural partner for renewable power sources,” tweets Shell.

No sooner had I landed in Germany, for 2017 U.N. climate talks, when I was confronted by airport ads paid for by Total, the French oil and gas company reading, “Committed to Solar” and “Committed to Natural Gas.”

All of which raises the question: why, if renewable energy advocates like Greenpeace, AOC and Thunberg are such defenders of the climate, are they advocating the replacement of zero-pollution nuclear plants, which will require burning more fossil fuels?

Why Environmentalists Turned Against Clean Energy

In the 1950s and 1960s, conservationists were pro-nuclear. They understood that nuclear plants would produce pollution-free electricity on a tiny fraction of the land required for coal mining, hydro-electric dams, and oil and gas drilling.

At the time, California’s utilities were heavily regulated and had an obligation to the public to keep electricity prices low. They proposed to build nuclear plants to eliminate the state’s reliance on oil and natural gas.

In the mid-1960s, the Sierra Club supported the building of the Diablo Canyon nuclear plant to replace fossil fuels. “Nuclear power is one of the chief long-term hopes for conservation,” argued Sierra Club President Will Siri in 1966.

“Cheap energy in unlimited quantities is one of the chief factors allowing a large, rapidly growing population to set aside wildlands, open space and lands of high-scenic value,” added Siri, who was a biophysicist, mountaineer, and veteran of the Manhattan Project.

Not everyone thought cheap energy was a good thing. “If a doubling of the state’s population in the next 20 years is encouraged by providing the power resources for this growth,” countered Club Executive Director, David Brower, California’s “scenic character will be destroyed.”

After weighing the arguments, the Sierra Club’s Board of Directors voted nine-to-one to support the building of Diablo Canyon.

In response, Brower quit and started a new group, Friends of the Earth (FOE). “There’s no more important issue in my life,” said Brower, than to “see that Friends of the Earth does everything it can, here and abroad, to stop the nuclear experiment.”

Would you be shocked to learn that the founding donor of FOE was oilman Robert Anderson, owner of Atlantic Richfield? He gave FOE the equivalent of $500,000 in 2019 dollars.

“What was David Brower doing accepting money from an oilman?” his biographer wondered. The answer is that he was developing the environmental movement’s strategy of promoting renewables as a way to greenwash the killing of nuclear plants and the expanded use of fossil fuels.

At the exact same time, California’s former governor, Edmund “Pat” Brown, was raising $100 billion (in 2019 dollars) from U.S. banks for Indonesia’s state oil company. In exchange, he received exclusive rights to sell Indonesian oil in California and a $360,000 (in 2019 dollars) donation to his son Jerry’s campaign for governor.

After he won, Gov. Jerry Brown’s aides took actions to defend the family’s oil monopoly. One of them, acting as an air pollution regulator, killed a refinery being built by Chevron, which would have competed directly with the Brown oil business, while another worked to kill nuclear plants.

By 1976, activists who feared that cheap nuclear energy would fuel overpopulation had taken over the Sierra Club. The organization’s new executive director proposed a strategy to foment hysteria about nuclear in order to impose regulations to make nuclear expensive.

"Our campaign stressing the hazards of nuclear power will supply a rationale for increasing regulation,” he explained, “add to the cost of the industry, and render its economics less attractive.”

Along with groups like Union of Concerned Scientists and NRDC, Sierra Club claimed that the clean if slightly warmer water that comes out of nuclear plants was a kind of “thermal pollution,” and demanded unnecessary and expensive measures to mitigate the non-problem.

Working together, Brown and the Sierra Club killed so many nuclear power plants between 1976 and 1979 that, had they been built, California would today be generating all of its electricity from zero-emissions sources.

Greenwashing Gas

Environmental Defense Fund (EDF) also got its start in California in the 1960s and 1970s. It created detailed energy forecasts purporting to prove that California didn’t need to build nuclear plants because it could simply reduce electricity consumption. California couldn’t, and massively expanded its use of natural gas, instead.

In the 1980s, EDF made an alliance with Wall Street and natural gas companies to deregulate electricity markets. Along with the lack of nuclear power, deregulation resulted in the 2000 energy crisis, which allowed natural gas investors to fleece California ratepayers out of billions of dollars.

NRDC, too, advocated deregulation and even helped natural gas giant Enron, distribute hundreds of thousands of dollars to environmental groups. “On environmental stewardship, our experience is that you can trust Enron,” buzzed NRDC’s Ralph Cavanagh. Enron executives at the time were defrauding investors of billions of dollars in an epic criminal conspiracy.

From 2009 to 2011, lawyers and lobbyists with EDF and NRDC advocated for and helped write mind-bogglingly complex cap-and-trade climate legislation that would have created, and allowed its Wall Street donors to take advantage of, a carbon-trading market worth upwards of $1 trillion.

Today, EDF works with the world’s largest multinational oil and gas companies to demand changes to regulations in ways that benefit highly-capitalized firms and undercut smaller, less-capitalized competitors.

In recent years the work of hiding outlandish assumptions about renewables and efficiency has fallen to Stanford’s Mark Z. Jacobson. By simply entering numbers into an Excel spreadsheet, Jacobson managed to convince many politicians, journalists, and activists that we can power the world on 100% renewables.

In an email, Jacobson says that he uses "a three-dimensional global weather prediction, climate, and air pollution model and a time-dependent grid integration model to show that it is possible to match supply with demand every 30 seconds for five and six years, respectively.”

Jacobson is a Senior Fellow at the Precourt Institute for Energy, which was founded by Jay Precourt, an oil and gas magnate and board member of Halliburton, the oil and gas services firm. The board of the Institute is a who’s who of oil, gas, and renewables investors.

Today, the Sierra Club, EDF, and NRDC together take in more than half a billion dollars each year from donors that include billionaire coal, natural gas, and renewables investors like Tom Steyer and Michael Bloomberg.

Sierra Club and EDF have received a minimum of $136 million and $60 million, respectively, from oil, gas, & renewables investors, and are currently working alongside the American Petroleum Institute to kill nuclear plants in California, New York, Ohio and Pennsylvania.

NRDC, for its part, has a minimum of $70 million directly invested in oil and gas and renewable energy companies that stand to profit from the closure of nuclear plants. It, too, is working to kill nuclear plants in California, New York, Ohio, and Pennsylvania.

Even smaller groups, like WISE International and Environmental Law and Policy Center, take money from natural gas and renewables companies while fighting to replace nuclear plants with natural gas and renewables.

Friends of the Earth and Greenpeace — which rakes in $350 million annually, crashes drones into nuclear plants, and recently declared, “Sabotaging nuclear is a vital part of saving the climate” — both keep their donors secret.

EDF, NRDC, and Sierra Club know perfectly well that solar and wind require the expansion of fossil fuels. How could they not? They’ve been killing nuclear plants and watching air pollution rise, as a result, for a half-century.

Renewables advocates know that had California and Germany invested $680 billion into new nuclear power plants, instead of renewables and the grid upgrades they require, the two places would be generating 100% of their electricity from clean, zero-emission energy.

They know that Germany today spends nearly twice as much as France for electricity that produces ten times the emissions per unit of energy because France receives 75% of its electricity from nuclear while Germany is phasing nuclear out.

And they know that, after investing $33 billion over the last decade to add more solar and wind to the grid, France had to use less nuclear and more natural gas, resulting in higher electricity prices and more carbon-intensive electricity.

Sometimes on Twitter, after I point these things out, someone will quip, “A lesson in unintended consequences.” But after 50 years of killing nuclear plants and promoting renewables, the main consequence of anti-nuclear advocacy — more fossil fuel pollution — can no longer be considered unintentional.

What about climate activists like AOC and Thunberg? Are they aware of the extent to which their renewable energy advocacy is a far more valuable form of natural gas greenwashing than any amount of Twitter and airport advertising?

AOC made it clear when she announced her Green New Deal that she wants a "transition from" nuclear to renewables, while Thunberg recently attacked nuclear as "extremely dangerous, expensive, and time-consuming" when the science shows that nuclear is the safest, cheapest, and fastest way to decarbonize energy.

Thunberg and AOC are right that we have a moral obligation to do the right thing on climate change. Unfortunately, neither of them does.


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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby careinke » Fri 12 Aug 2022, 01:03:54

Tanada,

Thanks for the article and link. What do you think of the credibility of the Author? At first glance he seems pretty credible to me. Then again, maybe it's just because I agree with him.....

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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 12 Aug 2022, 07:50:03

Good article but probably written with certain bias. As the saying goes “Everyone sells their own book.” He spends too much effort on blame and short sells efficiency improvements and population as viable measures. None-the-less a good and informative article. Thanks for posting.

I am embarrassed to admit that for many hears I was caught up in the anti-nuclear hysteria. I thank James Lovelock for being man enough to publicly change his mind which gave me room to also admit being wrong.

Where This article chafes me is on the topics if over population and efficiency, the need to use less poser per capita. The author derides those that promoted these solutions.

What I read is 1/2 the story. The whole story is that there were/are competing methods for dealing with climate change and resource depletion. When argue that any ONE strategy is the path forward you damage other helpful strategies.
And humanity, or Western culture, will need all the help it can get.

Yes to nuclear power. And it should be developed to reduce the amount of toxic fuel residue. Restart that project Obama let go.
Yes to greater efficiency; HVDC power grids, rationalizing our car fleet, and reducing our waste.
Yes to slowing our population growth and looking to reduce population. That means we have to redesign our capitalist structures to accommodate Degrowth.
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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 12 Aug 2022, 13:31:53

careinke wrote:Tanada,

Thanks for the article and link. What do you think of the credibility of the Author? At first glance he seems pretty credible to me. Then again, maybe it's just because I agree with him.....

Peace


I have known of the author for at least two decades and back when I first joined PO dot come he was an anti-nuclear pro renewables advocate. Around 2008 he got into a serious debate with former anti0nuclear advocates who had learned over the years that a lot of what they had been led to believe from their leadership in the environmentalists groups they belonged to was anywhere from inaccurate to downright a complete fabrication supported by fossil fuel interests. In 2009 he switched sides and became a pro-nuclear environmentalist for the same reasons I am, energy density and small environmental impact compared to other forms of energy supplies. Then 2011 Tsunami took place causing the Fukushima disaster and he was very disturbed but went to Fukushima personally and visited the site complete with dosimeter and radiation detectors to prove for himself if it was dangerous to be in the area. The whole incident is in the film Pandora's Promise showing him in the exclusion zone post disaster and hearing his concerns before the visit where he is questioning whether he made a mistake becoming pro-nuclear. After visiting the site and discovering that the containment structures did a good job containing the dangerous radiation he became a much stronger pro-nuclear environmentalist and for the last decade he has been giving presentations to Google and TED talks and via other public venues in support of expanding nuclear power as the best method for reducing carbon emissions.

As a former supporter of Greenpeace myself I can see why he is so hard line against the organizations like the Sierra Club that he spent years supporting only to discover they were spreading misinformation about nuclear and feeling deeply betrayed. He knows the California environmental groups inside and out because he was a stout contributing member for the first couple decades of his adult life. This comes across in his advocacy because it has been a big part of his conversion from anti-nuclear to pro-nuclear.
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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby C8 » Fri 12 Aug 2022, 20:32:16

The Green movement is a religious movement- never forget that. They don't consciously worship the earth and the sun but it is a powerful emotional force that shapes their worldview. Paganism was the primal religion of all civilizations in antiquity and sun worship was the norm. That which is natural is good, that which is man made is bad. Nuclear power is man made and evil, solar and wind are natural and from the Gaia goddess of planet Earth. Global Warming is their version of "judgement day" when Gaia punishes the wicked polluters for abandoning the natural way. Their literature on this is drenched in apocalyptic visions.

This doesn't mean that all environmentalists are like this or that they don't have a strong rational side- but religious feeling is a powerful undercurrent in their thinking. The push for renewable energy is their holy war.
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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 12 Aug 2022, 21:57:56

C8 wrote:The Green movement is a religious movement- never forget that. They don't consciously worship the earth and the sun but it is a powerful emotional force that shapes their worldview. Paganism was the primal religion of all civilizations in antiquity and sun worship was the norm. That which is natural is good, that which is man made is bad. Nuclear power is man made and evil, solar and wind are natural and from the Gaia goddess of planet Earth. Global Warming is their version of "judgement day" when Gaia punishes the wicked polluters for abandoning the natural way. Their literature on this is drenched in apocalyptic visions.

This doesn't mean that all environmentalists are like this or that they don't have a strong rational side- but religious feeling is a powerful undercurrent in their thinking. The push for renewable energy is their holy war.

On this you have it quite correct. The question is how to keep them from taking us all down a poison koolaid path.
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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 13 Sep 2023, 10:41:14

Vestager promotes hydrogen in race to head EU’s bank

France has said it will favor a candidate for the European Investment Bank who supports investing in nuclear projects.

Top EU official Margrethe Vestager name-checked wind, solar and hydrogen as forms of renewable energy that should get funding from the European Investment Bank, which she hopes to lead after stepping down from her role as Europe's top antitrust enforcer.

But the Danish politician made no mention of nuclear energy in an interview with the Center for Global Development, being published on Tuesday — and seen by POLITICO prior to publication — an omission that's likely to be noted in Paris where officials are leaning toward backing a rival candidate for the EIB job.

Asked what kind of energy forms a future EIB chief should support, Vestager — who is on unpaid leave from the Commission while she campaigns for the EIB job — told the Washington-based non-profit: "We have all the known technologies of solar, wind and water. We have the emergent technologies of hydrogen, a new kind of battery, wave energy — and we need to figure out how to combine [these forms of energy] because we have very little time to fight climate change."

French President Emmanuel Macron has made clear Paris will favor a candidate who supports investing in nuclear power as part of the EIB's mandate to become a "climate bank" focused on renewable energy. POLITICO reported last week Paris was leaning toward backing Nadia Calviño, Spain's deputy prime minister, over Vestager for the EIB top job, though officials clarified that a final choice had not been made.

Asked about her strategic vision for the role, Vestager insisted on the need for internal reforms, for increased risk-taking, and for an EIB that was "closer aligned to the other EU institutions, what is decided in the European Council because the European Investment Bank is the investment arm to help us achieve what we want for Europe."

She also cited a "need for acceleration" in the bank's affairs. "We need to invest more. We need to invest faster. So there is a need of reform of the bank in itself," she added.

Finance ministers are due to decide on their pick for the EIB top job before the end of the year.


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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 14 Sep 2023, 18:50:40

Some learn slowly. It is a political game, no more.
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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 15 Sep 2023, 03:36:22

Newfie wrote:Some learn slowly. It is a political game, no more.


The worst thing IMO is calling hydrogen an energy source when at best it is a chemical battery. It is not like you can drill hydrogen wells all over and just harvest energy from them, it is a manufactured product the same way as vegetable oil or corn ethanol are manufactured fuels.
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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby AgentR11 » Fri 15 Sep 2023, 23:09:13

I couldn't find this thread earlier this month when it would have been more appropriate, but we had a recent string of excessively hot days which resulted in excessively high electricity use.

It was interesting watching the grid status live, the oil and gas pro's that run the system complained about unreliable/low wind generation, but at its tightest, when the grid only had an ~2GW margin, wind was providing well over twice that despite the light winds at the time. (Solar was zero, the squeeze was just after sunset).

Yes, Texas got its oil and gas loving butt saved by windmills. lol
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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby careinke » Sat 16 Sep 2023, 01:40:22

AgentR11 wrote:I couldn't find this thread earlier this month when it would have been more appropriate, but we had a recent string of excessively hot days which resulted in excessively high electricity use.

It was interesting watching the grid status live, the oil and gas pro's that run the system complained about unreliable/low wind generation, but at its tightest, when the grid only had an ~2GW margin, wind was providing well over twice that despite the light winds at the time. (Solar was zero, the squeeze was just after sunset).

Yes, Texas got its oil and gas loving butt saved by windmills. lol


In addition, Bitcoin miners helped by freeing up even more energy for the grid.

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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby theluckycountry » Mon 18 Sep 2023, 03:56:29

Interesting comments on this page. I can see why big oil is behind the green push, why wouldn't they, it consumes oceans of oil and gas, mountains of coal. And in 20 years they will have to do it all over again. Renewables Rebuildables were never a solution
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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 18 Sep 2023, 14:00:37

Traveling for an over night trip to Indiana Friday and back home Saturday we passed through the Timber Road windfarm on the Ohio-Indiana border. The complex was built in four phases and now has 86 wind turbines according to the website. Here is the puzzle, out of all those giant towers we saw less than 12 rotating at any one time. Now if there was enough breeze for 12 out of 86 you would think there would be enough breeze for at least half to be operating, would you not? Granted the generators are in three different capacities, but the higher the capacity the longer the blades to allow operation in the same conditions for all sizes. Or so I have been told in the past at any rate.

I started out as a big believer in wind power but the longer I live the more turbines I see just sitting there stationary at any given hour of the day or night. At night they are lit up with collision avoidance beacons to warn away aircraft. Where is all my promised energy?

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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 19 Sep 2023, 18:11:49

Tanada,

Do not know for a fact but may be maintenance issues. I tried tonread up on wind failure rates and found there was no standard reporting criteria and many operators just do not publish anything. There is a group who tries to publish all the obvious failures they can find and it is rather shocking. There is a nine zero death rate do to the buggers.

One thing I do dot understand is that they have fires due to failed bearings, they over heat and then set the whole damn thing ablaze. Hot bearings is a wel l understood and easily monitored situation. Maybe not the fix, but feather the turbine to stop a catastrophic fire.

And maybe that is what they are doing, feathering to stop rotation because wi bearing issues. Or some such maintenance problem.

I have no clue how one goes about changing a bad bearing on one these monsters. One would think it had been thought out, but the one would thing there would be nonfires due to bearing failures.

My best guess is accountants are running the show.
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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby AgentR11 » Thu 21 Sep 2023, 14:39:18

Another possible cause of non-spin... if the grid has no place for the electricity to go, either to current oversupply or inadequate grid capacity.
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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby kublikhan » Thu 21 Sep 2023, 16:47:06

Tanada wrote:Traveling for an over night trip to Indiana Friday and back home Saturday we passed through the Timber Road windfarm on the Ohio-Indiana border. The complex was built in four phases and now has 86 wind turbines according to the website. Here is the puzzle, out of all those giant towers we saw less than 12 rotating at any one time. Now if there was enough breeze for 12 out of 86 you would think there would be enough breeze for at least half to be operating, would you not? Granted the generators are in three different capacities, but the higher the capacity the longer the blades to allow operation in the same conditions for all sizes. Or so I have been told in the past at any rate.

I started out as a big believer in wind power but the longer I live the more turbines I see just sitting there stationary at any given hour of the day or night. At night they are lit up with collision avoidance beacons to warn away aircraft. Where is all my promised energy?
Sometimes they purposely shut down turbines for maintenance or curtailment reasons. IE, there could be too much generation on the grid for demand so the grid operator calls for some units to shutdown. Or, renewable generation is outpacing transmission causing the grid to become congested. Recent US investments in renewable generation have been outpacing investments in transmission causing congestion and curtailments to increase. Increased transmission capacity and/or increased storage capacity would alleviate this issue.

Passing a wind farm, I see some turbines spinning and others motionless. Why?

Short Answer: The turbine is down for maintenance
Wind turbines, like all machines, need both scheduled and unscheduled maintenance. In some instances that explains why some are operating but not others. In larger wind farms, several turbines on a circuit can be inoperable and not spinning because they are all down for maintenance, said John Roudebush, program chair of Ivy Tech College’s Energy Technology program.

Long answer: Curtailment, congestion and wind speed
Energy transmission in Indiana is run through the Midcontinent Independent System Operator, commonly known as MISO. The group manages the flow of electricity by balancing demand versus what’s being generated, which means there are times where excess electricity is being produced. “(Sometimes) we don’t need the power as demand is down or another power plant is selling power to the customers instead,” Roudebush wrote in an email. “Power plants compete on the grid. A coal plant, a natural gas plant, or a wind farm will all bid to sell power during some part of the day and MISO will pick the cheapest bid for the day. Generally, wind is the cheapest but not always.” John Hall, assistant professor at the University of Buffalo’s Engineering and Applied Sciences, focuses his research on the technical aspects of wind energy. While some wind turbines will operate normally, he said others may be stopped to match production with grid demand. “Basically, you have the utility company distributing power and buying and selling in real time,” Hall said. “Based on how much they need, wind farms would turn turbines off accordingly.” The industry calls a wind turbine that is not spinning “parked,” Hall said, and this is done with a braking system that holds the rotor in place. Once energy demand rises, the brake is released and almost immediately the turbine starts delivering electricity to the grid again.

To help improve the efficiency of wind farms, Hall said banking excess power is a huge research area right now. “There are studies on new battery technology and super capacitors and different ways to get around that issue,” Hall said. Another solution for storing excess electricity is by making hydrogen, Hall said. Wind farm operators would be able to create hydrogen and store it for use later when the grid demand increases.
Passing a wind farm, I see some turbines spinning and others motionless. Why?

Renewables curtailments continue to grow as the buildout of wind and solar capacity outstrips the buildout of transmission infrastructure. With insufficient transmission structure, circuits become congested and lead to the curtailment of renewables generation.
Wind and Solar Curtailments on the Rise

Newfie wrote:Do not know for a fact but may be maintenance issues. I tried tonread up on wind failure rates and found there was no standard reporting criteria and many operators just do not publish anything. There is a group who tries to publish all the obvious failures they can find and it is rather shocking. There is a nine zero death rate do to the buggers.
The data I have says wind has a low failure rate compared to other power plants.

Without exception, no source of electricity runs full time. Coal, nuclear and gas plants—or conventional resources—periodically experience unexpected outages, and they all need to be turned off periodically for routine maintenance. Their often abrupt failures are sometimes the largest potential failures for which system operators must prepare. In contrast, wind and solar plants have much lower failure rates.
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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby Pops » Thu 21 Sep 2023, 19:24:21

As I understand what happens when thermal generation capacity becomes overloaded the turbines start to slow, just like your ICE does when taking a hill in too high a gear. The effect is the frequency of the alternating current falls as well. This is a bad thing for sensitive equipment but really bad if different generators fall out of sync with each other or a cascade of breakers trip.

On the one hand there is a flywheel effect from those huge thermal turbines' inertia, the is a great benefit as that effect can smooth small fluctuations in load to keep the frequency very close to 50 or 60 htz (depending on the where). But on the other hand there can be hours / days / weeks pass from start-up to power flowing as the water begins to boil and the rotation of the turbine/generator is matched to the frequency of the grid.
So, there is a thing called "spinning reserve" where the water is hot, the wheel is turning, and the plant is in sync and on grid but contributing only a minimal amount of power. It is actually paid just to spin and be ready to dispatch, even though it is contributing little. I assume all types of base generation (except maybe nukes) operate at less than max power as a rule in order to maintain some level of reserve capacity to be dispatched at a few moment's notice, just by applying more beans.

The difference is more or less smoke coming out of a coal-fired plant chimney isn't as obvious or easily counted as idle wind turbines.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/en ... ng-reserve

PS, the momentum of spinning generators thing is a whole nother problem with RE, because they don't have any. OTOH if they are connected to storage that can serve as a "flywheel" of sorts. If they are AC (I think most all wind is) but go through a DC phase, they don't need time consuming synchronization because, it can also be done through the distribution electronics.

I think that is mostly correct...
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby theluckycountry » Thu 21 Sep 2023, 19:54:23

Thanks for the informative post pops, and welcome back to the discussion, I for one missed your incisive input.
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Re: THE Alternative Energy Thread pt 4 (merged)

Unread postby careinke » Sat 23 Sep 2023, 06:00:58

AgentR11 wrote:Another possible cause of non-spin... if the grid has no place for the electricity to go, either to current oversupply or inadequate grid capacity.


Bitcoin can fix that.

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