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THE AC/Heat Exchanger Thread (merged)

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Re: Mythbusting: AC and it's effect on gas consumption

Unread postby JustinFrankl » Mon 07 Aug 2006, 12:18:31

Doly wrote:
JustinFrankl wrote:All these tests show is that for the model tested, energy "lost" to A/C is equivalent to efficiency lost in increased aerodynamic drag.


But that's the point, isn't it? When it's hot, you're either going to use A/C or pull the windows down. Nobody is going to voluntarily bake in the car.

Of course not. My point was that they weren't going to address that both of these things decreases fuel efficiency, and the real reason is driving in the heat. One could choose to not drive, or bicycle, or walk, or take public transporation, move closer to work, work from home, drive when it's not so hot. That one could choose to organize his/her life in a different manner, a manner that didn't depend on immediate gratification and dependence on the car, was not going be addressed here.
"We have seen the enemy, and he is us." -- Walt Kelly
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Re: Mythbusting: AC and it's effect on gas consumption

Unread postby gg3 » Tue 08 Aug 2006, 07:46:58

For me it comes down to 1) driver safety and 2) arriving on client's sites in a fit condition to do work that demands heavy brainpower.

Without AC, I get worn out and tired, sleepy and spaced-out from the heat. With AC I can stay alert and safe and fit to work. Studies of commercial truckdrivers show similar results.

I do not have AC in my house because, unlike on the road, I can get up and drink unlimited amounts of cold water and take other steps to stay cool (aside from which the house never gets as hot as the vehicle) that aren't possible on the road.

There are other steps that can improve efficiency on the road without impairing safety or job performance. Driving as slowly as the road and traffic conditions allow is the most obvious one. Driving less by whatever means are possible, is the other.
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Review of Aeroseal Service on my HVAC

Unread postby dbarberic » Thu 21 Dec 2006, 15:16:44

For those not familiar with Aeroseal, it is a method of sealing your ductwork using adhesive particles blown into your ducts after they have been closed off and pressurized. It is akin to “fix-a-flat” for your ducts.

It is a patented process developed by researchers at Lawrence Berkeley and developed into a business called Aeroseal. Aeroseal was acquired by Carrier (the HVAC company) about a year ago.

The official website is here:
http://www.aeroseal.com/

After learning about Aeroseal after finding it through a link on the engerystary.gov website, I knew that was exactly what I was looking for. I planned on sealing the ductwork myself, but I could only seal what was reachable in the basement. The Aeroseal provided a much better solution as it seals the entire system, including the duct working the walls.

I scheduled a service date with the Aeroseal contractor and had them come out.

The first thing the contractors do is measure the loss of air in your duct work by pressurizing the system and hooking sensors up to a computerized pressure meter.

My pre-sealing stats:
Supply side ducts air loss: 246 CFM
Return air duct air loss: 1,161 CFM

To help visualize this, a typical mid-size refrigerator is roughly 25 cubic feet. So my supply side air ducts were loosing about ten refrigerators of heated air for every minute of run time! My return ducts were loosing about 46 refrigerators of air for every minute of run time!

The Aeroseal techs first worked on the supply side. They hooked up the machine that pressurizes the ducts and blow in the adhesive particles. As the particles find the leaks, the build up and eventually seal the hole. You can watch the computer monitor as it graphs the air loss in CFM over time and the graph continues to drop. The techs watch the monitor and once the graph flat lines there is no more ability to seal additional holes. You can never get the ducts to zero CFM loss because the pressurization and temperature required would be to great (the sealant is heated as it is blown in).

The biggest problem that I had was that the techs were not able to get my return side duct leakage down as significantly as they wanted to. Most modern construction houses use wall cavities between the studs as the return ducts, rather than actual metal ducts like the supply side. The result is that when plumbing and electrical wiring is run they drill large holes in the studs and cause leaks that are too large for the Aeroseal sealant to work. The techs did the best they could, but as you see in the results below, the reduction in the return air side was not as great as the supply side.

My after sealing stats:
Supply side: 83 CFM (a 68% improvement in leakage).
Return air: 760 CFM (a 35% improvement in leakage).

After the techs are done they print off a paper report showing you the before and after measures and a graph of the sealing done in minutes and how the CFM leaked was reduced.

Does it work? Well I have no quantified measures yet to say if it made a large dent in my heating/cooling costs. I certainly seems that the heat runs in significantly shorter cycles as much more heat makes it way to the living space rather than leaking out in the wall cavities. Our rooms are more evenly heated. Our master bedroom used to be at least 2-3 cooler than the rest of the house. Now is close to the same temperature. I always keep my house at a max of 68 degrees in the winter. My wife and I used to get very cold hands and feet, now In general the house feels “warmer” and more comfortable even at the same temperature.

Pros:
-Effectively seals all ducts inside and outside of your walls
-The Aeroseal techs also manually seal the ductwork they can reach in areas like basements/crawlspaces
-The energy star website says that duct sealing should save you between 10-20% in heating or AC costs
-The computerized report provides quantified evidence of reduction in air leakage.
-The service is also supposed to help reduce dust in the house and my wife is always complaining how bad the dust is in my house before the service was done. Did it reduce the dust? I don’t know, to early to tell.

Cons:
-Depending on where you live it can be expensive. Note that there is only one contractor in my state certified to perform Aeroseal service (Ohio). It was expensive because I had to pay for the additional drive time of two hours each way for the techs to come out. Aeroseal was originally founded in the Southwest, so there are more contractors out there and you should be able to get a better price. Also, some municipalities are offering rebates to encourage people to use the service. I’m an energy efficiency freak, so I felt the cost was worth it as a hedge for rising energy prices in the future.
-If you house uses wall stud cavities for return air, you probably will never get a good seal out of them unless you rip apart your walls and seal the areas by hand.
-If you have ducts that haven’t been cleaned in awhile, you will need to have a duct cleaning service first clean your ducts before Aeroseal can come in. Sealant doesn’t stick to dust very well (additional cost to factor in).
-If you’re a doomer, sealing your ducts won’t matter, because everything is collapsing anyways.
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Re: Review of Aeroseal Service on my HVAC

Unread postby RonMN » Thu 21 Dec 2006, 15:35:46

Please forgive my ignorance...but if we're talking about "heating ducts" here...any hot air that "escapes" will go into the house anyway, so there would really be no loss at all.

Or am i missing something?
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Re: Review of Aeroseal Service on my HVAC

Unread postby dbarberic » Thu 21 Dec 2006, 15:43:06

RonMN wrote:Please forgive my ignorance...but if we're talking about "heating ducts" here...any hot air that "escapes" will go into the house anyway, so there would really be no loss at all.

Or am i missing something?


Yes, heating ducts. Depedning on your house structure, your ducts can also run in unheated areas of your home (e.g. unfinished basement, attics, crawl spaces, etc). This can lead to heating loss.

I understand what you are saying, but would you rather have your warm air blown into the wall studs behind your drywall or into your actual living space?
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Re: Review of Aeroseal Service on my HVAC

Unread postby WisJim » Thu 21 Dec 2006, 16:41:25

What did it cost? And could you give us an idea of the size of the house?
Thanks.
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Re: Review of Aeroseal Service on my HVAC

Unread postby SolarDave » Thu 21 Dec 2006, 17:30:54

Thanks for a very informative write-up.
100% of the electricity needed for this post was generated by ME.
http://www.los-gatos.ca.us/davidbu/pedgen/green_virtual_gym.html
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Re: Review of Aeroseal Service on my HVAC

Unread postby dbarberic » Thu 21 Dec 2006, 18:56:23

WisJim wrote:What did it cost? And could you give us an idea of the size of the house?
Thanks.


My house is fairly new. Built in 1996, colonial style house, 2,300 sq ft not including unfinished basement. Located Northeast Ohio.

I also have a wood burning fireplace insert that I use for heat, but primarly on the weekend when someone his home all day long. I'll start it Friday afternoon and burn straight through Sunday night.

Using the insert alone, plus weatherizing, and using a set back thermostat, I got our monthly budgeted natural gas bill down to $25.

What was interesting is that the tech doing the service said that they find the same leakage in brand new homes and older homes too. Most construction workers just slap together the HVAC system with little care to performance.

I paid $1,800 to have the service done. There is only one outfit in Ohio the provides contracted Aeroseal service and they are in Columbus. So I had to pay to have them drive from Columbus to Cleveland, plus it took two techs a full six-seven hours to set up, seal, and break down their equipment.

While the ROI (return on investment) at current natural gas prices (for heating) and electric prices (for AC) would take many, many years to recoop the $1,800; I'm hedging that NG and electric prices will rise and offset the investment sooner, rather than later.

I've seen a price range quoted for Aeroseal somewhere and it listed $600-$2,000. I was clearly on the upper end of the range due to one contractor state wide and compensation for travel time. I've read that in the Southwest some utilities and cities are offering rebates when you have the service done. Also, as I said before, the company started in the Southwest, so there are many more licensed contractors out there that provide the service.
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Re: Review of Aeroseal Service on my HVAC

Unread postby WisJim » Fri 22 Dec 2006, 10:36:03

Thanks foir the additional info!!
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Timers for window air conditioning units

Unread postby HamRadioRocks » Sun 11 Feb 2007, 18:07:05

Air conditioning isn't an issue now, but I expect that to change in about 4 months.

Do they sell 220V outlet plug-in timers? I already use a timer to control one of my lights. It would help me save energy on air conditioning if I could operate my air conditioning unit in a similar fashion. I'd set the thermostat to the same setting as before (about 3.5 on the 1-7 scale, which equates to about 79 degrees) but use the timer to turn on the air conditioning only at certain times of the day (perhaps 3PM to 11 PM).

Yes, I know I'd save energy if I turned off the air conditioner manually each morning before leaving for work. The problem is that the house would heat up so much during the day that it would take a long time for it to cool back down in the evening. Using a timer on the window air conditioner would be the next-best thing to using a programmable thermostat.
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Re: Timers for window air conditioning units

Unread postby pedalling_faster » Sun 11 Feb 2007, 18:16:15

HamRadioRocks wrote:Do they sell 220V outlet plug-in timers?


http://www.electricsupplyonline.com/pro ... 001143.php

probably even got them at Home Depot.
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Re: Timers for window air conditioning units

Unread postby strider3700 » Mon 12 Feb 2007, 14:17:48

home depot does sell them but they are expensive compared to the 110 V ones. $70 or so when I was looking into them for my hot water heater.

Getting a little outside of the box my programmable thermostat for the electric baseboards is 220V I believe and it was something like $25 on sale when I found it.

Just leave the AC cranked and put it in the line.
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Re: Timers for window air conditioning units

Unread postby gg3 » Tue 13 Feb 2007, 07:00:52

Even at $70, this will pay for itself in a few months. In some places it will pay for itself the very first month.

Excellent idea; go ahead and do it.

Note to anyone else: If buying a window-mounted or single-room air conditioner, get a 120 volt unit so you can use a less expensive timer and the payback will be even faster.

In either case, it's also worthwhile to install a thermostat, which can be done by modifying the air conditioner accordingly (aha, new product idea for our group here!). Thus the timer comes on and the AC runs until the temp comes down to some reasonable level i.e. between 75 and 85 degrees, and then the unit cycles on & off to maintain that temperature. (The thermostats on most air conditioners are roughly calibrated and hardly as useful as a separate thermostat installed on an adjacent wall.)
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Re: Timers for window air conditioning units

Unread postby gwmss15 » Fri 16 Feb 2007, 09:42:01

in australia i could get a simple timer for my 240 Volt 10 amp aircond system for about AUD$10 or USD $ 8 these things a just cheap chinese imports and they work well.

A companys like ringrip, arlec and a few others do make these timers.

WIth a credit or debit card it might be possiable to order one from australia they will be more than strong enough for US 220 volt as australia standard supply is 240 volt AC 50 hertz you will need a plug converter though one for australia to south east asia plugs should work in us as if i remember correctly the Thai and US plus are the same 2 round prongs side by side no earth. they also use 220 volt

hope this helps USD 70 for one of these timers is a huge rip off its 9 times the price in australia.
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Re: Timers for window air conditioning units

Unread postby DarkDawg » Wed 14 Mar 2007, 14:01:40

Some newer models have timers built-in. Look for the Energy Star logo and digital controls. The one I had was a Whirlpool.
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Re: Timers for window air conditioning units

Unread postby captain_ignorant » Wed 14 Mar 2007, 16:18:42

australia standard supply is 240 volt AC 50 hertz


There are 2 kinds of plug in timer. Mechanical with synchronous motor and the electronic. The mechanical will run too fast on 60Hz. The electronic ones shouldn't use the mains frequency as a timekeeping reference so that should be ok leaving you with adapting the unit to your outlet and appliance. Plugs for US220 and OZ240 are quite different. Would be possible to rebuild contents of timer into a box...
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THE AC/Heat Exchanger Thread

Unread postby Narz » Thu 15 Mar 2007, 18:54:44

Not sure if this is the right forum for this (it could have just as easily gone in "Energy Technology" or "Planning for the Future". Mods feel free to move it.
Anyway, was wondering about low-tech cooling systems. Any good websites for this? I read somewhere that some ancient people used "clay eggs" to keep things cool. Something about the clay and the egg shape kept stuff considerably cooler than the outside temperature. Any truth to this?
Thanks!
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Re: low-tech cooling

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 15 Mar 2007, 19:11:59

Are you looking for low-energy ways to cool a room or building, or are you looking for low-energy refrigeration?
Here's the pot-in-pot refrigerator: pot in pot fridge
more info
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Re: low-tech cooling

Unread postby Narz » Thu 15 Mar 2007, 19:16:40

Ludi wrote:Are you looking for low-energy ways to cool a room or building, or are you looking for low-energy refrigeration?

The latter mostly.

Ludi wrote:Here's the pot-in-pot refrigerator: pot in pot fridge
more info

passive home cooling

Thanks! :) I'm checking those out now.
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Re: low-tech cooling

Unread postby billp » Thu 15 Mar 2007, 19:55:12

If you live in a dry climate, like albuquerque, swamp cooler [expansion] works well.
Air conditioning doesn't save energy
I want to make sure that readers do not get a false impression regarding the energy consumption of refrigerated-air cooling for homes. The article on Charter Homes in Huning Ranch, Los Lunas, implies that refrigerated air is an energy efficiency feature.
Actually, refrigerated air uses three to five times more electric power than evaporative cooling. This is based on my experience as facilities engineer for a large building owner in Albuquerque, and on published information.
The story did not mention water consumption, but there is inaccurate information circulating about that as well. When the amount of water used at the power plant is considered - almost 1 gallon per kilowatt-hour - there is relatively little difference in water consumption between refrigerated-air cooling and evaporative cooling.
David Robertson Corrales
August 2006 Business Outlook, Albuqueruque Journal

Swamp coolers work pretty well in Iran and Iraq too, I speculate.
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