[Ghog]

The goal is to reduce consumption as much as possible, and gear up solar to replace fossil fuels as they are able.

In relation to this ^^, does anyone know what %s of homes are considered energy efficient in the US? the rest of the world?

One of the biggets benefits of solar would be to the home (passive heat, hot water, cooking). While it is nice to improve photovoltaic efficiency, are we doing ourselves a disservice by not updating all housing to be as efficient as possible? In other words, PV panel efficiency goes up 3%, but that doesn't compare when an inefficient home wastes 60% of its energy. That begs the question, what would the cost and energy requirements be to update all housing? Do we bother as the suburban lifestyle may come to a halt? Any thoughts?

[MonteQuest]

There are basic demands that must be met.

After achieving ZPG we have a rather large population to care for, and this is going to require energy, lots of it, even after we cut out the fat from over consumption and frivolous use of energy. People are still going to need the basics: be protected from the extremes of weather, have safe food storage and cooking, an ability to get to work (whatever that work is) and basic commerce. If this isn’t achieved, even after TSHTF, then it’ll be a free for all and it’ll be a long way down to bottom.

We have terawatts of energy. We don't need terawatts for basics.

It's like the food discussion. Increase the energy and it will be used. Decrease the energy supply and people will have to use less.

I would rather be talking about a consensus on what we can agree on. The nuclear debate has gone on ad naseum in other threads.

I cannot support an unsustainable energy regime of any kind, regardless of the consequences. We will just have to learn to cope and adapt.

[Ghog]

1) Develope wind power that is cost effective in areas that have poor 30 and 50m winds by investing in improving generator efficiency.

Too specific. Needs to be broad.

1) Make wind power viable in all geographic areas ??

[MonteQuest]

1) Develope wind power that is cost effective in areas that have poor 30 and 50m winds by investing in improving generator efficiency.

Too specific. Needs to be broad.

1) Make wind power viable in all geographic areas ??

Not all areas are viable.

1. Develop decentralized wind power applicable to viable areas.

Anyone have anything to add/modify? Keep it short, please? This is all we are trying to come up with.

[FatherOfTwo]

We have terawatts of energy. We don't need terawatts for basics.

It's like the food discussion. Increase the energy and it will be used. Decrease the energy supply and people will have to use less.

I would rather be talking about a consensus on wha twe can agree on. The nuclear debate has gone on ad naseum in other threads.

I cannot support an unsustainable energy regime or any kind, regardless of the consequences. We will just have to learn to cope and adapt.

I'll play along.
Ok, wind and solar only. So, does the grid in its current form exist or is it toasted all together? I think it essentially has to be abandoned because we won't have the basic minimum power requirements to be sustained. Not without quantum leaps in battery storage technology - hydro (if that does infact fit the definition of sustainable) won't give us enough oomph.

So how does this local energy paradigm apply to say, expanding the rail infrastructure? All of our local solar and wind infrastructure will decay over time and need replacing. We certainly aren't going to be able to do that locally. So it'll need to be shipped somehow... how does this work in the local electricity production paradigm? Or do we have mini grids, or infrastructure-dedicated grids?

[turmoil]

2. gradually decrease use of fossil fuels while implementing the decentralized renewable sources.

Edit: (requires marketing campaign to reduce consumption) ....lol and a calculator.

[MonteQuest]

Ok, wind and solar only. So, does the grid in its current form exist or is it toasted all together? I think it essentially has to be abandoned because we won't have the basic minimum power requirements to be sustained.

Wind and solar only? Nowhere have I said we wouldn't continue to use coal, natural gas, nuclear and oil to provide electricity.

Nuclear supplies only about 18-20% of our electricity. As decentralized solar technologies replace coventional power, we won't need the grid capacity, nor new transmission lines.

[EnergySpin]

As decentralized solar technologies replace coventional power, we won't need the grid capacity, nor new transmission lines.

This is not true ... any grid (even a city wide grid) will need baseline voltage.
There are places where the grid will be the only way to provide reliable LOCAL distribution capacity due to hydros and or nukes operating further away. However the deregulation monstronsities that make the existing grid vulnerable to collapse and increase wasted energy have to go.
In addition some facilities CANNOT exist at a local level. Who will build the solar panels and wind turbines in the future? Unless the real goal is not a sustainable electricity production BUT NOT ELECTRICITY AT ALL.
I'm afraid you cannot have this cake and eat it too Monte

[FatherOfTwo]

Ok, wind and solar only. So, does the grid in its current form exist or is it toasted all together? I think it essentially has to be abandoned because we won't have the basic minimum power requirements to be sustained.

Wind and solar only? Nowhere have I said we wouldn't continue to use coal, natural gas, nuclear and oil to provide electricity.

Nuclear supplies only about 18-20% of our electricity. As decentralized solar technologies replace coventional power, we won't need the grid capacity, nor new transmission lines.

I meant wind and solar (or "sustainable") for any new generation... I was aware you intended to have existing fossil fuel (or "unsustainable") stuff phased out...

I'm going to bow out of this for now so that I'm not an impediment... I think more detail needs to be flushed out of how a decentralized sustainable energy paradigm works, to see if in fact it will work. horse before the cart kinda thing

[MonteQuest]

Moderator Note:

I have devoted a great deal of time to put this together. The least everybody can do is to read and follow the simple directions. And please, read to the end of the thread before posting so you know what is going on. Ok?

We have to take things one thing at a time or we will be here forever.
Doesn't that make sense?

[Wildwell]

Congrats folks for starting the debate, it’s good to see we are trying to save ourselves.

There has to be a multi-pronged approach and some things will have to be downscaled whether we like it or not.

1. Energy. All energy projects should be based on renewable. Wind, solar, hydro. If this is a wide distributed grid, intermittency is less of a problem. Some sort of more stable back up would be required for critical applications, possibly powered by biomass and geothermal. Households and industry should be encouraged to store energy in local battery banks. Biodeisel should be used for trucks and some trains.
2. Planning. New town planning methods need to be put in place, based around localised economies. Much more emphasis on compact planning, sports, trolley buses and light rail. Reduce the need for cars and more sports, cycling and walking. Buildings should be built to collect and store as much energy as possible.
3. Society. Education should be shifted to things we need, for example craft industry and gaps in the job market. Reduce immigration. Less single person households, move to family units again – this will be important in old age and pensions and retirement are reliant on growth. Ecology classes and civic responsibility.
4. Recycle as much as possible.
5. Transport should be more rail based and where possible direct feed rail 25kv/50kv AC overhead electrification where possible to reduce power loss. Trolley buses and trucks where it is not economic to build railways. Max road speed to be 50mph for all traffic. Truck traffic should be much more localised and integrated with rail. New breed of hybrid bio diesel/trolley truck. Cars will be permitted but be small battery powered units (provided the household can power them) or rationed biodiesel. Road network much reduced with single carriage roads and private and tolled. Aviation limited to government and military business and credits for business travel and must be offset by carbon credits. Reduce transport as much as possible, and re-domesticate industry where possible. Railways to ‘flight’ passenger trains and allow for intermodal and container freight to take the rest of paths where possible in congested areas, new network of distribution depots. Passenger trains to work on yield management to control peaks and raise overall loads. Loadings of trains can be calculated from pressure on suspension airbags etc. One smart card for all transport, with carbon credits, travel credits and pricing. Should be available in any retail outlet and the whole system integrated.
6. Plan for durability, over engineer not build to specific lifes pans.
7. New laws for energy efficiency: Light bulbs, household insulation, lights that turn themselves off when people not in the room. Switch to log fires as a back up and encourage the planting of trees.
8. Economic reforms, trade-pacts rather than political unions. Outlaw trade unions in critical industry.
9. Making fashion unfashionable and reduce consumerism and advertising. Encourage smaller families and multi-generation families. IE Annexes for grandparents rather than state looking after them.
10. Tie money to energy and sustainability laws.

[MonteQuest]

As decentralized solar technologies replace coventional power, we won't need the grid capacity, nor new transmission lines.

This is not true ... any grid (even a city wide grid) will need baseline voltage.
There are places where the grid will be the only way to provide reliable LOCAL distribution capacity due to hydros and or nukes operating further away. However the deregulation monstronsities that make the existing grid vulnerable to collapse and increase wasted energy have to go.
In addition some facilities CANNOT exist at a local level. Who will build the solar panels and wind turbines in the future? Unless the real goal is not a sustainable electricity production BUT NOT ELECTRICITY AT ALL.
I'm afraid you cannot have this cake and eat it too Monte

I never said end the grid, what I said was that we won't need the capacity if it is being replaced by alternatives at the local level. There will always be a grid, probably fueled mostly by coal and the remaining nukes for the foreseeable future.

[MonteQuest]

I tried to find a consensus, and it has failed miserably. People don't wish to follow the game plan I devised...so be it.

All it entailed was to follow some simple directions.

So, I'll leave you with what I started and I will finish the plan on my own.

I'll edit out my initial posts constraints and you can proceed as you wish.

Perhaps my expectations of cooperation were too high.

Montequest.

[turmoil]

2. gradually decrease use of fossil fuels while implementing the decentralized renewable sources.

Edit: (requires marketing campaign to reduce consumption) ....lol and a calculator.

i was not being sarcastic...just so everyone knows. It should be included that it's a gradual process and that money is there for renewables because consumption has dropped.

I'm afraid you cannot have this cake and eat it too Monte

Unless it's chocolate cake!

mmmm, chocolate.

[turmoil]

it has not failed. We are on your side. Relax. No one is challenging your overall goal. It's a complicated issue and a list doesn't just come out of nowhere.

[Wildwell]

I tried to find a consensus, and it has failed miserably. People don't wish to follow the game plan I devised...so be it.

All it entailed was to follow some simple directions.

So, I'll leave you with what I started and I will finish the plan on my own.

I'll edit out my initial posts constraints and you can proceed as you wish.

Perhaps my expectations of cooperation were too high.

Montequest.

Well I don't mind admitting, I don't actually know exactly what you want to discuss. Obviously renewable energy, but what specific aspects, and how does everything inter-relate?

Perhaps it’s just better to brainstorm a Plan B or powerdown, and then try and pull all the threads together? Your call.

[Zentric]

Rather than see MonteQuest's good intentions go to waste, might I suggest you all read an eco-classic, called "Ecotopia", written by Ernest Callenbach some 30 years ago?

This visionary book played out such a powerdown scenario where the millions of citizens involved positively thrived as a result - and so did their natural environment. I read the book myself a couple weeks ago and posted my thoughts on it in the book review section on this forum.

Like any good powerdown scenario, I suppose, it all started with a "bitch slap upside the head", followed by careful governmental execution, and resulted in a more "leisure class"-type existence for Ecotopia's citizens.

Although I certainly haven't achieved any consensus on this, I believe that Ecotopian principles could be applied in today's world.

[MonteQuest]

And my point was that I was the only one being pointed to, when even you were not following your own rules. If newbies are 'moderated' more than the long timers, let me know, and I will surely move to a forum of more open discussion.

I was responding to someone who had already posted a question. I was not breaking my own rules.

Your thoughts are obviously well thought out, but if you already have the 'plan' in your mind, only looking for that 'concensus', why not just post your ideas already and move right to the debate.

This is not about my plan, but about an orderly discussion of one. Few seem to want to do that.

Even when I did as you suggested, everybody just ignored it.

I can't and won't work this way.

If anyone thinks the the first phase was just "my plan" I'll take away the thanks to those who contributed that I posted in the plan thread.

[JohnDenver]

If anyone thinks the the first phase was just "my plan" I'll take away the thanks to those who contributed that I posted in the plan thread.

I don't think it was "your plan". In fact, I would very much like to see "your plan" for culling the human herd, and "helping" the infirm out of the lifeboat.

[MonteQuest]

The format was clear. People just didn't read and follow simple directions.

Sorry, I'm done here. I'll finish my "version" and put it up for you all to debate like you choose.