[Lore]

Above is Gail Tverberg's graph. Notice the collapse starts in 2015 or 2016, and the decline is steep. Remember that most people get killed on the way down the mountain, and look at where we are going! It's going to be a wild ride!

Could it be that this will start with the energy snap back from the current price debacle?

[Subjectivist]

Having fallen down steep hills I for one am not looking forward too this future.

[dolanbaker]

2011/2012/2013/2014 marked end of world for millions of Sudanese, Nigerians,
Syrians, Iraqis, Palestinians, Pakistanis, NATO and US fighting forces, all dead or suffering life altering wounds.

Certainly, "out of their comfort zone".

I was referring to the general populations of the mainly currently stable western countries. The current unrest is more to do with turf wars than the aftermath of a real decline in general living standards.

[Strummer]

The current unrest is more to do with turf wars than the aftermath of a real decline in general living standards.

The Syria crisis was directly caused by a historic mega-drought and the resulting displacement of millions of rural farmers, which led to massive civil unrests.

[Sixstrings]

That's right Six. I forget about your space-dreams.

It was nice to be picked for your team though pstarr, thank you, I was that kid in grade school that never got picked for dodgeball.

We all have a right to like the things we like, I happen to like space stuff. I always have. If I've gotta be poor in the new economy and going forward, then at least somebody give me some darn pictures of the surface of titan and let me watch rovers run around and let me learn new things about the universe.

I would LOVE to see a serious mission to Europa and melt a sub probe down through the ice and watch video of it cruising the ocean floor and just see what's down there.

I think it's money well spent (global space budget is only 2% of the world military budget). That's something big society can do as a whole that I can feel a part of, and it's not war; I can't feel a part of some oligarch's new megayacht or Bill Clinton's buddies and their lifestyles of the rich and famous.

[DesuMaiden]

I plan on living in the middle of nowhere with a permaculture garden. I plan on living with a community of like-minded survivalists in the middle of nowhere with a permaculture garden with no electricity and home-heating. Home-heating would be provided by fire-wood. Electricity will be provided by solar panels or wind energy (if there is any). Otherwise, no electricity. Middle of nowhere with a group of likeminded individuals.

[Newfie]

Maintime Canada (Nova Scotia & New Brunswick) have low land prices and can have a reasonable climate. They can also be pretty close to the middle of nowhere.

I've 168 acres I bought for $58,000 about 8 years ago. I don't do anything with it, but it would make a hell of a wood lot and in the meantime I can say I'm doing something for global warming.

If you have enough trees you can make liquid fuels. Gasification process.

So, it's doable. You need a bit of seed money, and a way to make a living in a depressed area.

If you want some inspiration about living on the cheap try Voyaging on a Small Income by Anne Hill, a country woman of yours and a gutsy lady. Not what you are thinking of, but shows what can be done with motivation.

She is a role model.

[copious.abundance]

This is a very strange end to the world. Most people don't even know about it.

Also thanks for this forum without this I would have nowhere to discuss my thoughts.

Here, maybe this will help:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FXKyQUE-BI

[DesuMaiden]

Local food production is perhaps key to survival in the collapse of industrial civilization. Grow and eat your own food locally if you want to survive this collapse.

[Pops]

Grow and eat your own food locally if you want to survive this collapse.

So how much are you producing now?

It's hard, not necessarily hard to feed yourself if you have a little capital and freedom to select your spot, but hard in the sense of opportunity cost. If I can make $50 out in the world it is hard to justify practicing sustainable farming.

I guarantee you you can't say, "I'll do it when I need to." You need to be there, learning and improving every year, a farmer only gets maybe 40 chance in a lifetime to do it right, that isn't a lot. If you are a permaculturist you get even fewer since your crop ideally only goes in once.

I've said it before, if you are gonna do it you need to get out there and get to it.

[DesuMaiden]

Grow and eat your own food locally if you want to survive this collapse.

So how much are you producing now?

It's hard, not necessarily hard to feed yourself if you have a little capital and freedom to select your spot, but hard in the sense of opportunity cost. If I can make $50 out in the world it is hard to justify practicing sustainable farming.

I guarantee you you can't say, "I'll do it when I need to." You need to be there, learning and improving every year, a farmer only gets maybe 40 chance in a lifetime to do it right, that isn't a lot. If you are a permaculturist you get even fewer since your crop ideally only goes in once.

I've said it before, if you are gonna do it you need to get out there and get to it.

I live in an apartment. I can't grow my own food. I need a house to grow my own food.

[SeaGypsy]

Hey Desu, Google 'seed bomb'. You will find a bunch of info on 'stealth permaculture'. The idea is for people who desire a real connection to their food source, but who are land poor. The bombs are made of clay & essential starter minerals for the seeds mixed in. There is no tending or digging involved, the seed bomb contains all that is required to get at least a proportion of the seeds going in the right location.

[SeaGypsy]

Come on P, I am just giving a thought on how someone who sees themselves as stuck in urban living might still be able to grow some food. I doubt anybody has ever guerrilla farmed their way to self sufficiency.

Twice I have lived in truly self sufficient communities, both were in far North Queensland, on the fringes of the Daintree rainforest, with mega rain, fab soil, amazing climate. One situation was a couple of hundred hectares of mostly grazing but with hundreds of fruit trees, chickens, semi wild pigs etc. the other was in a small town where the yards were large & very fertile, in the tropical highlands, we could grow pears & avocados & citrus right next to brassicas & European herbs. Your size estimate is about right from my experience.

[PrestonSturges]

I was sort of thinking of moving to FL so I can watch the oceans rise.

[DesuMaiden]

Hey Desu, Google 'seed bomb'. You will find a bunch of info on 'stealth permaculture'. The idea is for people who desire a real connection to their food source, but who are land poor. The bombs are made of clay & essential starter minerals for the seeds mixed in. There is no tending or digging involved, the seed bomb contains all that is required to get at least a proportion of the seeds going in the right location.

Thanks for the info. I'm not sure if I'm able to grow food from the 7th floor of an apartment though. At least grow enough food for my entire family.