[SeaGypsy]

In 4.5 years here I have made very, very few enemies. At the moment I can count them very easily: you and Rune.

PS: I think I am way better informed on human nature and reality than star gazing old fogies too scared of their mortality to face it head on, too rational to accept that their only escape from this mortal coil is in the highly irrational. Space travel, developing the Galaxy- phooey- it's just religion for 'rationalists'.

[KaiserJeep]

Look, I don't know the lot of you, and I don't know this place very well. But I am beginning to suspect that this is one of those places on the web where sick people congregate to feed their mental illness.

SeaGypsy, I will mention that if you are truly convinced that the world is ending, and you are doomed, and that there is no hope, my guess is that you have a mental illness called major depression, aka clinical depression. You need to talk to a therapist about this, and get diagnosed by somebody with a medical degree of some sort, and get treated for this condition - if in fact you have it.

I say this with all my heart. You cannot afford to ignore symptoms such as these, you need to seek treatment. I'm just a total stranger on the web, I don't know you from Adam, but my wish for you is that you get better, feel better, and help yourself. Failing in taking my advice, if you have a spiritual adviser, priest, or mentor that you respect, seek them out and ask them if they believe that you need help and treatment.

Now go read the damned book I pointed you at! It will not hurt you to be exposed to opinions that differ from yours - it may indeed be very helpful.

[dohboi]

Hmmmm.

So if we don't believe your loony space fantasy, we all must be deranged.

Ooookaaay.

Have you found this a useful strategy in entering into other discussions on the web or in life--to declare that everyone else in the forum or room you have entered is sick?

If you feel that way, you are (more than) invited to go off and find a forum where less "sick" people dwell, people, perhaps, who you can share your techno-fantasies with.

NB. If you choose to hang around, I at lease, will not be answering your posts. Don't take this to be agreement with your tripe. I try not to feed denialist trolls.

[SeaGypsy]

Is KJ another incarnation of Rune? (Mods please check the IP's )

Talk about a load of projectionist tripe. Wouldn't know me from Adam. I've given the guy a bit of a poke here and there- otherwise occasionally agreed with him even- the way most of us are here with each other (I don't think any of us furniture posters here agree on everything- about 98% believe peak oil is upon us and is a serious problem- that's why we're on peakoil.com like derrrr!)

Anyway- armchair psychiatry in 5 minutes- should be making a living out of that KJ- if you are any good at it! (Unfortunately I think not. Peeps here who have known me for 5000+ posts know what I am like better than my own family- as to how I really think. I don't think any have thought I am seriously nuts or depressed- not for long anyhow!

It takes a while to build a rapport, to get to know posters on a forum, to be able to give a somewhat valid opinion of others beyond directly to a particular post. It is intensely arrogant and bad form to show up here and blather on like a know it all then react like a smart arsed University professor when someone disagrees with you. For a 62 year old you have a lot to learn about communications and how they work on internet forums. If you want to carry on like an adolescent, perhaps it's best if you keep reading science fiction and hoping for immortality- perhaps on a more appropriate forum?

[Newfie]

Funny, that's the EXACT same image I frequently use.

However there is a VAAAAASSSSST difference in our meanings.

I have a strong investment in the TRUTH. This has lead me to atheism and some other unpopular "beliefs," for there is no escaping we all work on faith.

That said, there are those things within the realm of reality, and those NOT.

Extra terrestrial colonization is a NOT. I'm not gonna argue it anymore than I would argue virgin birth, or tablets in my garden.

We MAY get hit by a meteor, that is possible. It MAY disable our consumer machine enough to give Earth a respite. That gives me at least a bit of hope.

[dohboi]

"No hope" has no meaning without context. Hope for what?

There is plenty of hope to make community, fight the good fight, reduce ones ecological footprint, make music, dance...in the next few years.

Hope for a moon colony to sustain 7 plus billion folks?

Not so much.

Basically, what Newfie said.

[SeaGypsy]

We have approximately 4 billion odd years before we will definitely be wiped out along with everything else on this planet, when the sun has finished with being what it is. Talking about hope- I would hope that there are still human beings or at least our descendant species, reverently awaiting the final moments, looking back in awe at the 4 billion years of history between then and now, with a sense of having been the progeny of a race which came all too close billions of years ago to being wiped out along with the entire eco-system- through insane pathological thought and activity- but had through huge calamity triumphed over their lesser selves to nuture a new, respectful and harmonious relationship with nature and the Universe.

Perhaps, very remotely- in this 4 billion years- a super human species will show up and enjoy this planet with us, assisting us in our endeavour to undo the so deep wrong which has been done by us- then by the same grace of being able to get here- whisk at least some of us away to a new place, a new solar system and planet, another several billion years of life to enjoy for the potentially ever lasting progeny. (Until entropy finally catches up- if indeed this is the 'only' Universe- another question we have billions of years to answer.)

Part a- all the hope I need for the time being. Might be a faint hope but it's there right in front of us as a possibility- the only real one other than complete reduction to 'cockroach and ratworld'.

Part b- something cool to fantasize and dream about- it's not going to happen in my lifetime or for many many more after that.

[KaiserJeep]

Again, with respect, if you have not read the book I pointed you at, or another of very few tomes in the same vein, you simply do not possess the information needed to make a valid judgement on the topic of space technology.

Here's a litmus test for you that will reliably distinguish those hopeless old fogeys whose opinions are fossilized from those of you whom may have just one small part of an open mind left on this topic. Answer this question WITHOUT looking up the answer: When was SpaceShipTwo's second suborbital flight into space? (The month/year is a sufficient answer.)

If you didn't know the answer before you read this far, then you are the helpless old fogey around here, not me. Because it happened in the last month on September the 5th, and was carried by virtually every media outlet on the planet. Therefore if you didn't know, your opinions are hopelessly set in stone, and you have been editing the reality around you to feed your preconceptions.

If you still have an open mind, read the book. Dr. Pournelle worked on his own space ships, being both a ground team member for an Apollo flight and a member of the ground crew for an SSTO (Single Stage To Orbit) vehicle called the McDonnell-Douglas SSX, which flew a sub-scale demonstrator vehicle (DC-X) which completed eight successful flights in the early 1990's. On flight #5 the vehicle experienced a mid-flight explosion that damaged the aeroshell, but it was still landed successfully, repaired, and re-flown. This was an "X-program" engineering effort that produced a flying vehicle for less than $60M in less than 2 years. Politics killed it in spite of it's success - it's embarrassing success - as NASA wanted no distractions from the Space Shuttle.

Ibon, I figure there is still hope for you, after reading your last message. To anyone else who is not really paying attention - I say for the 3rd time, space colonization is not about saving anybody, it is about species survival - for humans and hopefully many more species.

In my 62 years we have gone from primitive jets that just went faster than sound, to moon landings, to selling tickets for flights into space on private spacecraft. I do not doubt we can colonize space, it would be irrational to do so IMHO.

As for my personal view of the Oil Peak, I do believe that JH Kunstler coined the appropriate name when he called it The Long Emergency. Nor have I found much to disagree with in Tariel Mórrígan's Peak Energy, Climate Change, and the Collapse of Global Civilization: The Current Peak Oil Crisis. Both are works I carry around in my E-Reader for quick reference - along with M. King Hubbert's original paper.

If we can manage to avoid nuclear war, and if that afore-mentioned "dinosaur killer" asteroid holds off long enough, and if that long-dormant but overdue mega-volcano slumbering under Yellowstone sleeps just a bit longer, the human race won't be caught on one small planet.

THERE: in one small paragraph above I mentioned three fates worse than the Oil Peak. That was a treat for the depressed Forum members. Now I feel the need for caffeine, and I intend to grind some of the fresh Kona beans my kid sent me.

[dohboi]

It boggles the imagination.

You believe that we are on our last legs with regards to energy resources, but that somehow we will have the enormous energy resources that would be required to colonize space.

Folks, I'm not sure this guy is worth bothering with anymore. I hope he has a wonderful rest of his life living on the space fantasies generated from his young viewing of "Lost in Space" and other such '50's and '60's inspirations.

On the other hand, we do need some humor to add to the mix of dire consequences we all see coming around.

So, stick around, KJ, and keep us entertained.

[KaiserJeep]

All it requires is the energy to get the proper equipment into space, and you have access to all the energy you'll ever need.

Solar energy, for example, is not cyclic in space. It is 24X365 and wiring does not oxidize in space as it does in a corrosive planetary atmosphere.

There are potentially many times the fissionable isotopes easily accessible in asteroids than on the surface of a planet, and no atmosphere to pollute and no government regulations to meet concerning storage and transport, either.

Ever hear of Helium-3? Probably NOT, since it only exists in tiny amounts on Earth. But the Solar Wind has been depositing Helium-3 for literally billions of years upon the lunar regolith, more of this rare isotope was recovered from the moon dust returned to Earth by the Apollo missions than had here-to-fore been known. Helium-3 is unique in that only a very low energy threshold must be overcome to fuse Helium-3 with Hydrogen-2 (aka Deuterium) and to produce a normal Helium atom, a spare protron, and beaucoups power as heat.



Helium-3 was part of the plot of the recent low-budget SF Movie Moon, but it's not SF, it's real and the potential power available in the lunar regolith alone can run our civilization for millenia at the present level of energy usage. You might want to read up on the Helium-3 research at Lawrence Livermore Labs, search on "Project Artemis". There is a potential to recover about 1,100,000 metric tonnes of Helium-3 from the surface of the moon (defined as the regolith to a depth of one meter). When fused this fuel will exceed all the energy generated by burning all the hydrocarbons on Earth by a factor of ten, or alternatively exceed all the energy available from fissioning all the uranium in the Earth's crust by a factor of 2.

All of this fuel is available on the surface of the moon, do any of you doubt that we have the technology to reach the moon?

Look: I don't KNOW that we can successfully colonize space in the period remaining before the serious issues caused by the various hydrocarbon peaks causes us to lose the industrial capacity for space travel - but I think there is a decent chance that humanity will save itself and a viable set of food species.

I don't hold out any hope for our present planet, long term. Is that depressing enough for those members who have partaken of the dark side?

[KaiserJeep]

pstarr, I object to your mis-characterization of my remarks to SeaGypsy as an "attack". I wish him only the best, but unrelieved doom and gloom is the very definition of clinical depression, which is a real and treatable illness.

Frankly, my jury is still out on this place. I absolutely believe in personal freedom, including anybody's right to consider himself "normal". I fully understand that every individual since Adam who has the smarts to think abstract thoughts is as eccentric as a pet raccoon. Oops, I forgot some of you don't live on my continent, I meant one of these critters:

...which if you don't know about the disposition of adult raccoons, is a really eccentric choice.

I don't think I'm lacking in basic arithmetic, I have an engineering background, I specifically studied the economics of power plants, and the book I linked to HAS ALL THE NUMBERS, and THE NUMBERS WORK.

Allow me to make one more remark with friendly intent: Any of you who think it clever to poke fun at me or my ideas about space, who have not read the above work, are acting foolish.

Now I am as sorry as anybody that we exceeded our sustainable population on this small planet, and that we face a series of escalating crises until we start to die in wholesale numbers. But that is history, we are already here and all of us reading this are doomed. There is no alternative plan not to have 7.3B to 9B or 10B humans, or whatever the number is when the curve tips over and we hit the population peak. It was too late to change our fate a century ago, and impossible now - just to get that many people's attention is not gonna happen, and you will never get any significant number of people to agree not to reproduce.

I mean, if you tried to sell ME that idea, I would laugh. If you tried to force me to comply, I would try to do you harm, as I am sure would most people.

Just don't try to sell me a line of bull about a topic that you show every symptom of being abysmally mis-informed on, either. Allow me to suggest instead that there might just be topics out there that you are not even reasonably well acquainted with, much less an expert.

[careinke]

I think KaiserJeep's ideas hold some merit. I'm talking about colonization, not SG's depression . Granted space colonization would be expensive, but hey, I'd rather see money spent on this, as opposed to blowing up some wedding party in Afghanistan.

I'm obviously talking about a small colony. Hawkins is right, all our eggs are presently in one dangerous basket, moving some of the gene pool out of the basket is a good idea.

Some advantages to be gained:

1. Off site storage of humans and other earth life forms.
2. We would learn a lot about true sustainability. Just trying to design a truly sustainable living systems, in a vacuum, would teach us a lot that could be helpful back here on earth.
3. A very secure seed bank.
4. Provides a measure of hope for the masses.

Disadvantage: Very expensive

[vtsnowedin]

I think KaiserJeep's ideas hold some merit. I'm talking about colonization, not SG's depression . Granted space colonization would be expensive, but hey, I'd rather see money spent on this, as opposed to blowing up some wedding party in Afghanistan.

I'm obviously talking about a small colony. Hawkins is right, all our eggs are presently in one dangerous basket, moving some of the gene pool out of the basket is a good idea.

Some advantages to be gained:

1. Off site storage of humans and other earth life forms.
2. We would learn a lot about true sustainability. Just trying to design a truly sustainable living systems, in a vacuum, would teach us a lot that could be helpful back here on earth.
3. A very secure seed bank.
4. Provides a measure of hope for the masses.

Disadvantage: Very expensive

I fail to see the point or advantage to building a space colony. It would be much easier to build a closed environment here on earth. I know the one time it was tried it was a failure but the experiment is much cheaper to repeat here on earth then in space. Just imagine your space ship that has landed but has not opened a hatch. It has one G gravity and 15psi outside pressure and needs no fuel or guidance to keep it in orbit. Much better to solve all the sustainability problems on small scale closed environments here on earth before we spend the resources on launching unproven technology into orbit.

[SeaGypsy]

War vs space fantasy- definitely space fantasy If it's both then nope we don't deserve to be going anywhere- same if we can't sort ourselves out ecologically speaking. As for the secure seedbank? Much more secure than a radiation filled space capsule would be a deep earth ice vault with robot in-vitro 'mothers'- much more doable than the same kind of thing which has to find a blooming planet worth landing on.

[SeaGypsy]

Known effects of long-term space flights on the human body



Although space travel looks easy on TV and in the movies, in reality it causes both short term and long term health problems for a spacecraft's most delicate cargo: its crew. On Earth, gravity is a force our bodies have to work against, which keeps our cells, bones and muscles strong. Remove the force of gravity from the equation and over the duration of a long-term micro-gravity space flight, human bodies undergo dramatic changes. That's why some experts feel artificial gravity will be necessary for the crew whenever possible during the Mars mission. Artificial gravity at even partial Earth-normal would help reduce the severity of some of the space-related health problems, and helps ensure the crew will arrive on Mars fit enough to carry out their duties there.

Yet even if the crew of the Mars mission has access to artificial gravity-conditions for at least part of their journey, they will still have to deal with many of the physiological changes that occur in space. Consider the following effects of long-term space flights on the human body and then ask yourself: would you apply to be part of a Mars-bound crew?

Short term:

Blood circulation
On Earth, the cardiovascular system circulates fluids through the body, working against gravity to prevent blood from pooling in the legs and bringing blood to the brain. In microgravity the cardiovascular system doesn’t work as hard, triggering a fluid shift. As fluids move up from the lower body to the trunk, the heart rate increases and blood pressure rises. Astronauts experience puffy faces, headaches, nasal congestion and skinny “bird” legs as a result.

Space sickness
Almost 40 percent of astronauts experience a form of motion sickness in space. Along with nausea and vomiting, symptoms include headaches, malaise and dizziness. Caused in part by the blood circulation changes described above, symptoms of space sickness usually subside within two or three days as astronauts adapt.

Changes in red blood cells
Some evidence suggests that microgravity causes astronauts’ red blood cells to change. The red blood cells appear to change shape in space, becoming more spherical, and fewer cells populate bone marrow. Cells do return to normal once back under Earth-normal gravity, however, even after a long-term mission.

Compromised immune system
Studies conducted in space and in test missions in Antarctica show that isolation and sleep deprivation may result in a weakened T-lymphocyte system, causing compromised immunity. Astronauts are more prone to infection by common and latent viruses as well as microorganisms such as bacteria and fungi. They may also experience increased allergy symptoms. Since the immune system doesn’t adapt under these conditions, the Mars crew will need to bring antiviral drugs and other medicines. Modern drugs degrade after six months though, so it is likely that the drugs’ active ingredients will have to be packed separately and be mixed on board as needed.

Back aches
No longer compressed by the force of gravity, back vertebrae separate slightly and astronauts grow up to two inches taller in space. A side-effect of added height, besides shorter pants, is back aches, which scientists believe are caused by the relaxation of back muscles and ligaments. Once astronauts return to Earth, they shrink back to their former height.

Muscle loss
Without gravity, everything in space floats. There’s no need for astronauts to walk, stand or lift in microgravity, and their muscles, particularly in their legs, atrophy. Underused, flabby leg muscles affect balance, posture and strength, and can increase the risk of tendonitis and fat accumulation. To counter these effects, which also occur to a lesser degree in artificial gravity, and to ensure otherwise sedentary astronauts will be strong and limber upon arrival to Mars, the crew will have to exercise up to two hours a day. After returning to Earth, they will undergo an extensive training program to re-strengthen their muscles.

Fatigue
Constant noise and irregular light patterns make it difficult to sleep on board a spacecraft. Astronauts may experience fewer hours of regular sleep and/or poor quality sleep. Combine that with the disruptions of our natural Earth day/night cycles en route and the longer Mars day (by 39 minutes) and the result is stressed and fatigued astronauts. During NASA’s Mars Exploration Rover Mission (2003), scientists and engineers working as mission control crews who lived on Mars time on Earth reported the circadian rhythm shift to be both disruptive and tiring.

Lack of cleanliness
Water is carefully conserved in space because the crew must carry all of their supplies with them on the long journey to Mars, and space (more precisely, mass) is at a premium on such a mission. This makes keeping clean a challenge. Mars-bound astronauts will have moist towelettes for daily scrubbing, but they’ll only be able to shower infrequently. Experienced astronauts say they create a wider buffer of personal space to keep out of odour range of their crew mates.

Poor balance and orientation
It takes time for the human brain to adjust to new points of reference in space. Astronauts in microgravity usually lose their sense of direction and feel uncoordinated or clumsy. Because inner ear and muscular sensors seek terrestrial clues, astronauts must learn to rely on visual cues for balance and orientation. But even visual cues can be confusing – astronauts in microgravity need to adjust to the fact that up and down don’t really matter in space like they do on Earth. Artificial gravity during space travel would definitely help with balance and orientation.

Psychological effects
Astronauts are generally resilient when it comes to stress, but there's no question that spending more than a year in space will be psychologically difficult. Long-term isolation, monotony, limited mobility and living in close quarters with other astronauts could lead to depression, interpersonal conflicts, anxiety, insomnia and even psychosis. While astronauts on previous missions say they took comfort in the view of Earth, Mars astronauts will watch the Earth getting progressively smaller and farther away, which could intensify feelings of isolation.

Re-adjusting to Earth
Astronauts returning to Earth risk low blood pressure. A sudden reintroduction of gravity makes the blood in astronauts’ bodies rush down, resulting in dizziness and lightheadedness. Tiny muscles in veins that send blood uphill may have atrophied and can fail to push blood up to the heart. Astronauts may lose consciousness or be unable to remain standing. Low blood pressure is more severe after long missions – Mir cosmonauts had to be carried off their landing craft by stretcher. To help their bodies readjust on re-entry, astronauts can drink salt water to increase the volume of fluids in their bodies, wear G-suits (rubberized full body suits which are inflated to squeeze the extremities) or potentially use new drugs to increase blood pressure.

Long term:

Bone loss
Weightlessness triggers the human body to excrete calcium and phosphorus (in urine and feces), resulting in rapid bone loss. In the time it takes to get to Mars and back, a crew member’s bone density loss will be equivalent to that of a lifetime on Earth. Like osteoporosis on Earth, bone loss in space can lead to fractures, weakness and painful urinary stones. The most dramatic changes occur in the heel bone, femoral neck, lumbar spine and pelvis. Exercise in space and upon return can help slow the loss, but it will take two years or more of dedicated, consistent training upon return to repair it. Artificial gravity would also serve to mitigate this problem is it is part of the mission design.

Cellular organization
Recent research implies that gravity helps cells create patterns. In microgravity, the microtubules in developing cells might not organize the same way they would on Earth, even after the astronauts return. It is unknown how this will affect the Mars crew over the long term.

Radiation
Astronauts in space experience flashes of light that seem to appear behind their eyelids. What’s actually happening is that galactic cosmic rays are slashing through their brains – retinal flashes are merely a physiological marker. Along with solar flares, these rapidly traveling rays expose astronauts to high levels of ionizing radiation. This form of radiation can damage atoms in human cells, leading to decreased immunity and a higher risk of cataracts, cancer, heart disease, damage to the central nervous system and brain damage. Long-term exposure to ionizing radiation in open space is a significant concern for the crew of the Mars mission. A number of solutions are being explored to help protect astronauts, including antioxidant-rich foods, such as blueberries and strawberries and close monitoring of radiation levels combined with the use of radiation shields.

---

http://www.racetomars.ca/mars/article_effects.jsp

36 years just to get to the fringe of this otherwise uninhabitable Galaxy, human body is going to be useless mush by then- by the time it gets somewhere there might be a 'new Earth' either jellyfish like or much more likely just a stinking rotten death ship.

PS the above was written by a realistic optimist. Artificial gravity has never progressed beyond the conceptual and has serious problems of it's own. The bolded text- Radiation- the virtually unavoidable killer for long term space living- even with blueberries and lead blankets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_gravity

[KaiserJeep]

SeaGypsy,

That long list of the effects of weightlessness simply does not apply. The 1976 O'Neill colony design includes artificial gravity, as did for that matter the 1930s and 1940s wheel-shaped space station designs by Willy Ley and Werner von Braun. The principle of using centripetal force as artificial gravity was actually tested on the US Gemini program on the Gemini 11 mission in 1966, when the Gemini spacecraft tethered itself to an Agena target vehicle and both were spun around until a fraction of a gravity developed. Artificial gravity is part of the design of colonies and long distance space ships, usually we don't bother - the health effects of microgravity on long ISS missions are known to be minimal.

As for the cosmic rays you refer to, those are an ongoing topic of research, and are detectable in the deepest mineshafts, having penetrated the entire depth of the atmosphere and partway into the Earth's crust. The point would be that they are at the same intensity in space and on this planet. If you want to understand the two forms of radiation that space travelers are exposed to that Earth dwellers do not, then educate yourself on the gamma rays of the Van Allen radiation belts, and the solar wind, which is primarily alpha particles and heavier but less energetic nuclides such as Helium-3.

I will not respond in kind to your prior abusive post. But understand that I do resent it and chalked up another mark against this Forum because nobody protested. This place obviously does not adhere to the standards of conduct I consider to be ordinary politeness.

But I have to ask: If you are so certain we are doomed and that there is no hope, why do you have kids????

[KaiserJeep]

I fail to see the point or advantage to building a space colony. It would be much easier to build a closed environment here on earth. I know the one time it was tried it was a failure but the experiment is much cheaper to repeat here on earth then in space. Just imagine your space ship that has landed but has not opened a hatch. It has one G gravity and 15psi outside pressure and needs no fuel or guidance to keep it in orbit. Much better to solve all the sustainability problems on small scale closed environments here on earth before we spend the resources on launching unproven technology into orbit.

I don't really think we will learn much we don't already know, we have man-years of experience on the ISS and man-centuries of existing in closed environments like submarines. At best the Earth-based experiment would be a simulation of a space colony. Although it would cost more, we could learn lots more and much faster by running the experiment in space.

[sparky]

.

wasting time with chemical rockets , it need a new breakthrough in space physics ,
it would take 1000 of years screening for suitable planet , this need to be reduced to days

geo-forming is a negative energy return