[oowolf]

If a few thousand Easter Islanders couldn't save their tiny island from destruction how can anyone rationally expect 6 or 7 billion to suddenly achieve planetary consciousness? Just listen to the presidential candidates blathering about alternative fuels, cap & trade, techno-fix, blah, blah, blah while the world burns. These people are totally committed to corporate-backed economic growth at all costs (The market will adjust!!). We've long since passed the population-point of no return.

There's no Pearl Harbor, but an apparently imcomprehensible slide into disaster. No one any longer "considers effects to the seventh generation".

Name me one monument-building civilization that saw a crash coming and voluntarily devolved while there was still time to do so.

Civilizations enter a period of senescence, where they feed on themselves, trying to maintain the illusions of empire, then crash.

[Ludi]

Name me one monument-building civilization that saw a crash coming and voluntarily devolved while there was still time to do so.

.

There's some evidence the Mayans might have decided to quit civilization, but this is controversial, I think.

[oowolf]

You know the Mayan civilization crashed twice, don't you? It's no wonder they gave it up.

[btu2012]

Name me one monument-building civilization that saw a crash coming and voluntarily devolved while there was still time to do so.

The Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantium).

Btu

[Ludi]

You know the Mayan civilization crashed twice, don't you? It's no wonder they gave it up.

Our civilization ("Western civilization") has crashed a bunch of times and we still haven't given up. So I guess the Mayans were smarter than us, huh?



Byzantium didn't give up on being civilized, did they?

[TheDude]

The Eastern Roman Empire contracted in response to external threats. Wouldn't call that powering down, but do you have a source that says otherwise?

Their technology was very impressive through their early reign, declined a bit over time, but the Empire held together until the Crusaders sacked Constantinople, finally succumbing to the Turks in 1453. Ever hear the story of the emissary from Italy being brought before the king, his throne rose into the air and mechanical birds flapped wings and sang, all that?

The Hrysotriklinos was the room where the emperor accepted the envoys. The room had golden mosaics and polychrome paintings. There happened certain things that impressed the visitors. While the visitor approached the emperor, the throne rose little by little and golden lions next to the throne, began to shake their tail and to roar. In this room existed golden and silver trees, and on their branches, golden birds embelished with precious stones, diamonds and sapphires, sang.

The emissary was appalled by this ostentation, too.

[Ludi]

I'm not talking about "powering down" I'm talking about not being this kind of civilization.


I'm talking about choosing a different way of life.


In spite of getting kicked in the pants various ways over the years, and now having quite a good view of our own history and those of other civilizations and why they collapse, we seem intent on continuing this losing strategy of our civilization.

[oowolf]

The ERE (Byzantine empire); how so?

Yes, beginning with Diocletian, the Roman elites began to abscond to the East, but this was hardly an intentional act of de-civilization. The Western masses were simply left to the not-so-tender mercies of the Gothic horde and a thousand years of plague and ignorance.

The Byzantine empire managed to hold on for almost another thousand years, but was actually in decline as early as the mid 6th c. AD. The sack of Constantinople in AD 1204 began the collapse which terminated in AD 1453 with absorbtion into the Ottoman Empire (1299-1922). So "Byzantium" was passed around to various Empires and never suffered the devastating collapse Rome had to endure. Rome fell from a population of 1.2 million in the early centuries of the first millenium to 17,000 in AD 1377 (the first time a census was conducted in almost 1000 years).

[Pops]

So the consensus at PO.com is:

Here as we near the peak of this oil-fueled, internet educated civilization, we will not only not see our predicament and change, but accelerate to our demise?


Never mind, I know the answer; it is becoming tough posting any type of hopeful stuff here.

[Pops]

So the consensus at PO.com is:

Here as we near the peak of this oil-fueled, internet educated civilization, we will not only not see our predicament and change, but accelerate to our demise?


Never mind, I know the answer; it is becoming tough posting any type of hopeful stuff here.

[oowolf]

Oddly enough, the comtemplation of doom fills me with a strange elation. Perhaps like Dostoevsky felt after being sentenced to death by firing squad,and standing in line, expecting to be dead in a few minutes, and then being reprieved to 4 years imprisonment.

The constant reminder of the temporal nature of our existence forces one to cherish every moment of life and to consider what living is REALLY about.

And I plan on planting even more trees this spring, if possible. Life is miraculous, WHY do we expend so much energy destroying it?

[Pops]

And I plan on planting even more trees this spring, if possible.

Thanks Wolf.

[oowolf]

It always amazes me that so many humans will sit for hours looking at some screen when they could be out looking at the real world. How many want trees or seeds for Christmas?

'tis sad..

[TonyPrep]

Well I'm hopeful that when people finally "get it", that we live in a finite world, we can plan a low resource lifestyle with improved quality of life. We could retain the best of what we have learned that can be applied to a low resource society, and avoid the worst pieces of what a pre-industrial world had.

I don't think there is any hope that we can carry on with business as usual indefinitely so let's try to build a better society, even if it is more isolated, more localized. I think there is hope in that.

[CarlinsDarlin]

Pops,
When I wrote my response I was feeling pretty doomerish. But, I should temper that - you've referred to me in the past as the "cheerleader" on the planning forums. I am still that. My hope lies in the individuals, small groups and small communities that do "get it." And in those who, while they may not "get" the whole idea of peak oil, do have enough of a grounding in the skills and traditions of the past to not feel so uprooted leaving the current consumerist way of life behind.

I still don't think the masses will figure it out until there is much suffering that affects them personally (and once they've figured it out - they'll have no idea how to deal with it), but as always there will be a small group of visionaries who can plant trees and plan for tomorrow, even if the outcome is uncertain.

I think things will continue to head south, true. But I've also planted cherry and apple trees. I still spend my winter planning my spring garden.

If I didn't think there was any hope for anyone in the future, I certainly wouldn't have adopted my two boys. There is hope. But I think the hope lies in individuals - not on a national level.

Kathy

[Smudger]

I think people are beginning to get it. There is now a six month waiting list for the VW polo bluemotion in the UK - its almost as if its a sports car!

[Pops]

... you've referred to me in the past as the "cheerleader" on the planning forums. I am still that. ...

Yes you are, Thank you!

I’ll agree it does get hard sometimes tho.

If I didn't think there was any hope for anyone in the future, I certainly wouldn't have adopted my two boys.

Me too, especially with a Mom such as you.

Tell them Merry Christmas from Mike.

[CarlinsDarlin]

Mike you are too kind. Thank you. I needed a pick-me-up tonight. I will certainly pass along your greeting to the boys - Merry Christmas to you and yours as well.
Kathy

[kublikhan]

The greedy few and the moronic masses of the United States will murder whoever gets in the way of their next gallon of gas. And then it will get worse until they turn on each other.

Are you implying the citizens of other countries are an enlightened lot? And peakoil will bring out the milk of human kindness in their nations?

[Rogozhin]

I've pre-ordered some trees for my new windbreak, apple orchard, and vineyard from raintree nursery.

I don't think there will be a 'po pearl harbor'.

I make my living by building the internet so I've an interest in our company becoming carbon neutral.

Rogo