[Newfie]

I guess I am a part of the elite then.

Summers in Newfoundland, winters in Caribbean.

Pretty low footprint though. No heating, no cooling. No utilities lities to speak of. But some travel costs.

[Plantagenet]

I guess I am a part of the elite then.

Summers in Newfoundland, winters in Caribbean.

Pretty low footprint though. No heating, no cooling. No utilities lities to speak of. But some travel costs.

You are an inspiration to us all.

I've admired your extremely intelligent lifestyle choices for years.

Cheers!

[FamousDrScanlon]

theluckycountry wrote:
CO2 reduction plans are well underway as far as I can see. The covid lockdowns were a good start

--from page 5.

I can't find any data to support any "plans underway" . Plenty of talk of plans, but all the data says otherwise.


Carbon dioxide emissions reached a record high in 2022

Thursday’s report was described as disconcerting by scientists who warn that energy users around the world must cut emissions to slow the dire consequences of global warming.

"Communities around the world emitted more carbon dioxide in 2022 than in any other year on records dating to 1900,..."

https://www.nbcnews.com/science/environ ... -rcna73108

Talk talk talk plans & schemes & blame bla bla bla. It's been non stop talk for 35 years & the entire time green house gas emissions & concentrations have gone up. What does that tell you?


Daily CO2

Jul. 26, 2023 = 422.66 ppm

Jul. 26, 2022 = 418.66 ppm

June CO2

June 2023 = 423.68 ppm

June 2022 = 420.99 ppm

https://www.co2.earth/
.......................................................

A cancer only has one simple plan - Consume, Infect, Reproduce. AKA MORE. Collectively the humans are a MegaCancer, who, if you look at the data & ignore their ceaseless talk, look like they have successfully laid the groundwork for their collective suicide before this century is out. It's a death culture.

Climate change is in runaway mode and the only plan is to Continue string everyone along for as long as they can. They've had the majority hopeful with an endless string of broken promises since 1988 & the plebs just keep coming back for more.

Hey kids Climate change made us a hot tub woo hoo!

Like a hot tub: Water temperatures off Florida soar over 100 degrees, stunning experts

A buoy near Manatee Bay recorded an astounding 101.1-degree water temperature Monday, a temperature common for hot tubs.

Still, despite a month of record-setting water temperatures already in the history books, Sunday and Monday's 100-degree water temperature reading stunned experts.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/weather/ho ... -rcna96163
........................................................

I luvs me A HoT Tub Party
https://youtu.be/yAJnpaFRrlw

..................
Below is the best description of how stringing along the masses works.

If all goes according to plan, like past COPs, powerful economic interests will sabotage what would otherwise be a rather dim forecast of a planet in various stages of collapse, some terminal.

We’ve seen this act (COP) repeat over and over, ever since COP1 in Berlin in 1995, as each successive COP-ending-ceremony finds the Parties congratulating each other, slaps on the back, for one more successful climate conference of 20,000-30,000 able-bodied professionals wiped-out from overconsumption of Beluga caviar and Domaine de la Romanee-Conti, but subsequently carbon emissions increase the following year, and every following year thereafter. What’s to congratulate?

More to the point, the annualized CO2 emissions rate is +60% since COP1, not decreasing, not going down, not once. After 25 years of the same identical pattern, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that the take-home-work from all 25 COPs mysteriously turns into the antithesis of the mission statement of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/11/20 ... peaks-out/

It's theater to keep you believing the world's governments are looking out for you when all along COP Cons & the IPCC were created to control how the science is presented & to protect the big interest parties & nations. For example a negotiator representing the KSA got final say on wording in IPCC policy recommendation by refusing to budge for days on the wording and browbeating volunteer scientists with no training in negotiating. These are gate keeper organizations.

I've recently been able to purchase Dr Pepper ZERO which has replaced Diet Dr Pepper at my Walmart & I could not be happier. Dr Pepper ZERO is superior to Diet Dr Pepper. Every swig of ZERO sends dopamine, juicy dopamine squirts cascading over my brain, which is what life is all about eh. Even masochists are chasing the D.

[Plantagenet]

Carbon dioxide emissions reached a record high in 2022
It's theater to keep you believing the world's governments are looking out for you when all along COP Cons & the IPCC were created to control how the science is presented & to protect the big interest parties

The UN COP and the IPCC "were NOT created to control how the science is presented & to protect the big interest parties" That idea amounts to a conspiracy that the thousands of scientists, environmentalists and UN and government officials involved in the COP and IPCC are all engaged in a giant conspiracy theory to NOT do anything about CO2 emissions and climate change.

Thats not true.

The UN COP process was created by scientists and environmentalists worried about climate change. The plan was to draft a UN climate treaty to reduce CO2 emissions, just like prior UN treaties had dealt with CFCs, landmines, genocide, etc.

First the UN COP process put together the Kyoto Accords which was the first global climate treaty ever. The purpose of the Kyoto Accords was to start nations on the road to measuring and reducing their CO2 emissions. But for some crazy reason in Kyoto Al Gore insisted that China be exempted from any requirements to reduce CO2 emissions. And thats how Kyoto was written.....it exempts China from all CO2 reductions efforts. And that giant mistake by Al Gore took the COP process down the wrong road.

Bill Clinton backed Al Gore, so the Kyoto Accords could not be ratified as a treaty in the USA. Both Rs and Ds refused to ratify a treaty that exempted China. But rather than send the Kyoto Accords back with the demand that China be included Bill Clinton said he would personally follow the Kyoto Accords....and that was a second giant mistake that removed COP treaties from the usual treaty ratification procedures. It meant that COP accords actually weren't binding treaties.

Then it got even worse. The planned next step in the COP process was to draft a tougher treaty that would FORCE nations to reduce CO2 and a treaty was drafted in at the COP meeting in Bali in 2013 and it was set to be ratified by all the world's leaders at the Copenhagen COP in 2015. But for some crazy reason Obama and the Chinese got in a pissing contest and the Copenhagen accords weren't ratified.

Then Obama did something even stupider......he abandoned the whole idea of the UN COP drafting a binding climate treaty to FORCE reductions in CO2 emissions and instead changed to focus to setting target temperatures that the world was not to be allowed to warm past. And even more stupid, Obama then travelled to China and signed a separate accord with them guaranteeing no limits on Chinese CO2 emissions. And when the Indians squawked Obama flew to India and signed another accord guaranteeing India could produce as much CO2 as they wanted.

By this time the whole UN COP process was indeed completely broke, so when the Paris Accords were signed at the PARIS COP they had absolutely no hard and fast limits on CO2 production....only the silly and meaningless targets of 1.5°C and 2.* C for warming and statements that China and India could produce infinite amounts of CO2.. But Obama was Obama and everybody cheered for the meaningless Paris Accords while CO2 pollution continued to rise.

Then Trump did something ultimately stupider. He claimed global warming didn't even exist and he wasted four years doing nothing about climate change.

And now Biden continues the pattern of stupidity. He was in Copenhagen with Obama when the last chance for CO2 reductions was thrown away, and he fully backs the Paris Accords with Obama's guarantees to China and India of unlimited CO2 production. We have just been treated to the pathetic sight of John Kerry going to China and begging them to reduce CO2 emissions in contravention of Obama's signed agreements guaranteeing China and unlimited CO2 production. And Biden himself has personally authorized burning up hundreds of millions of barrels of oil from the US stragetic petroleum reserves, making Biden himself perhaps the greatest single CO2 emitter of all time.

So please don't attack the good people who set up the IPCC or the COP treaty process or who worked on them (that would include me, by the way). Put the blame for the ever increasing CO2 emissions where it belongs.....on China, India, Al Gore, Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, Donald Trump and Joe Biden.


Put the blame for the ever increasing CO2 emissions where it belongs.....on China, India, Al Gore, Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, Donald Trump and Joe Biden

Cheers!

[theluckycountry]

So please don't attack the good people who set up the IPCC or the COP treaty process or who worked on them (that would include me, by the way). Put the blame for the ever increasing CO2 emissions where it belongs...

I was chatting with my brother yesterday, we were discussing local councils and I was saying most people have little faith in them because they invariably line their own pockets at our expense, spend our money on things we often don't approve of, like fancy upgrades to their buildings and monuments to their names, and are proven to favor family and friends when it comes to contracts. He countered with the standard spiel that council provides invaluable services like rubbish bins and fixing potholes and on and on it went. After I while I said "lets change the subject, because I feel like I'm talking to someone across the council front desk" Which was quite apt, since my brother does indeed work in council chambers.

When you're making money or otherwise remunerated by an organization you can't speak for it with legitimacy because you're compromised. You won't think you are compromised, but you are. The trouble with political entities like the IPCC is that the scientists chosen to sit on them are the 'political' scientists who have basically boot-licked their way up the ladder of power, they are not the scientists doing the actual research. Hence they are more beholden to the politicians than to their own ilk, and are willing to bent the data in a way their masters want. What this means in practical term is that they will always choose the rosiest interpretation. So if the data shows the probability of arctic ice completely disappearing between 2025 and 2120 they will select 2115 as the IPCC advice on the matter.

You don't work in the EV industry plant. That is quite obvious.

So please don't attack the good people... Put the blame for the ever increasing CO2 emissions where it belongs.....on China, India, Al Gore, Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, Donald Trump and Joe Biden.

If you drive a car, use electricity or eat food that otherwise doesn't come out of your backyard you are to blame. Everyone is to blame, blaming one off politicians is simply a way of trying to make your own hands look clean. Jimmy Carter tried to make a change didn't he. He was tossed out on his ear and Reagan moved into the white house and took the solar panels off the roof, probably put surface to air missiles up there instead. The public didn't want to give up their gas guzzlers, then or now.

[Plantagenet]

When you're making money or otherwise remunerated by an organization you can't speak for it with legitimacy because you're compromised.

Its nonsense to say that people with scientific expertise or other technical skills who are employed by organizations shouldn't speak about the goals of the organization they work for or the work they are doing in the field in which they are experts.





------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lucky....I'm sorry but I don't quite follow where are going on your blanket condemnation of all people who work for organizations. You seem to be claiming they are all "compromised,".... I assume you mean they are corrupted or dishonest or not to be trusted.

I regret to have to be the one to tell you the truth....but this just isn't so.

----------------------------------------------------------

You are engaging in what is known as "conspiratorial thinking"

I you wish to learn more about this, please read this interesting scientific paper available on-line at the US National Institute of Health website

Interesting scientific paper about conspiratorial thinking

Good luck to you.

Cheers!

[theluckycountry]

I guess I am a part of the elite then.

Summers in Newfoundland, winters in Caribbean.

No, but you are a good example of the way to live as one who has means. For most of history it was the very rich and their friends (their court), and a few wealthyish traders and artisans. The rest were basically dirt poor. Enter Oil and the 20th century. Now a person of modest means can live better than king Solomon.

The trick though is to emulate the rich and not get mired in debt. You don't have to be an elite, and who would want to be? Buffett is nearly 100 and still working hard, I retired at 58, that's long enough for any man. Now it's time to enjoy the fruits of my labor. A 50k Yacht is actually better IMO than a $200 million yacht. Sure the girls and all that are on the big one but you can't just sail up and moor on a little island can you. You're isolated by your wealth, far above the actual experience you sailed off to experience. The sand between your toes, the spray in your face, the feeling of being the master of forces that at anytime could overwhelm you if you let your guard down. "Living" in other words.

The Elite have Gold. So do I. They don't worry about money, neither do I. But I can take off for 2 weeks or two months or a year if I like and do whatever I like. I don't have to check in to my corporations, keep watch over my enemies. No the elite made a bargain with the devil so to speak and are slaves to their position in the world, where we are free. We have all the basic luxuries they have but with a better connection to the Earth, to the Wind and the sky and all the things that make being alive such a beautiful experience. I love driving myself around, I love lighting my own fire, splitting my own firewood, but not cutting and hauling it. I have it delivered.

[theluckycountry]

Lucky....I'm sorry but I don't quite follow where are going on your blanket condemnation of all people who work for organizations. You seem to be claiming they are all "compromised,".... I assume you mean they are corrupted or dishonest or not to be trusted.

Don't assume anything plant, if you do your assumption will be based on your own "all or nothing" mindset and will be wrong. That's how you twisted my word, 'compromised' into meaning corrupt dishonest and untrustworthy. Where did you get that definition Plant? Again from your own biased mindset, certainly not from a dictionary.

This is what the word means.
1/ made vulnerable (as to attack or misuse)
2/ impaired or diminished in function : weakened, damaged, or flawed

And you said

"your blanket condemnation of all people who work for organizations"

I condemn no one, but I simply state the obvious. Real estate agents, car dealers, supermarket staff, stock brokers and political climate scientists are all people whose income and upward mobility depends on them saying "the right thing" They can't tell the whole truth can they? A supermarket staffer can't tell you the real reason why they now charge for reusable plastic bags, 'profit', they have to tell you the lie about saving the environment, even though the majority of product in the shop is in a plastic bag or plastic tray with plastic wrap. They make more money selling salad cut up in trays than as whole lettuces and tomatoes etc.

A realtor can't or won't tell you that a factory over the back sends out smelly odors every other day, or a car dealer that this car actually had a transmission problem and they cheaply patched the problem. These are the things you probably need to know, and they know that too. But they won't tell you because they are "Compromised" by their position as a salesperson dependent on you buying what they are selling.

Really plant. I thought you were smarter than this? I though you understood how the world worked and that you had a reasonable grasp of the English language. Are we going to have to have these sort of exchanges all the time now where I point out the basics of society and lecture you in the English language? I don't mind helping people where I can, you're a decent person, not an arsehole like Adam, but it gets tiresome you know.

[theluckycountry]

Back on Topic:

A once-in-a-7.5 million-year event in Antarctica gobsmacks climate experts

Tuesday, July 25, 2023
"For those of you who are interested in statistics, this is a five-sigma event. So it's five standard deviations beyond the mean. Which means that if nothing had changed, we'd expect to see a winter like this about once every 7.5 million years." Edward Doddridge, Physical Oceanographer, Research Associate Institute for Marine and Antarctic Studies, UTAS, and a Theme Leader in the Australian Antarctic Program Partnership (AAPP)...

This year's ice decline was not the first time the phenomenon was witnessed. There were all-time lows in 2016, 2017, and 2022, but the sea ice recovered in those years. The fear is that the ice will not recover this year even though the continent is in a dark and bitterly cold winter.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/7 ... te-experts

Antarctic sea ice is at a shocking low this winter, collapsing to an amount far below anything recorded in the last 40 years.
https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/07/28/off- ... rying-low/



The water will be lapping at the steps of the whitehouse before anyone takes any notice I fear. Thankfully I live well above sealevel.

[Tanada]

Back on Topic:

A once-in-a-7.5 million-year event in Antarctica gobsmacks climate experts

Tuesday, July 25, 2023
"For those of you who are interested in statistics, this is a five-sigma event. So it's five standard deviations beyond the mean. Which means that if nothing had changed, we'd expect to see a winter like this about once every 7.5 million years." Edward Doddridge, Physical Oceanographer, Research Associate Institute for Marine and Antarctic Studies, UTAS, and a Theme Leader in the Australian Antarctic Program Partnership (AAPP)...

This year's ice decline was not the first time the phenomenon was witnessed. There were all-time lows in 2016, 2017, and 2022, but the sea ice recovered in those years. The fear is that the ice will not recover this year even though the continent is in a dark and bitterly cold winter.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/7 ... te-experts

Antarctic sea ice is at a shocking low this winter, collapsing to an amount far below anything recorded in the last 40 years.
https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/07/28/off- ... rying-low/



The water will be lapping at the steps of the whitehouse before anyone takes any notice I fear. Thankfully I live well above sealevel.

The smart people all live well above sea level or have alternative living arrangements to do so at need. Personally if every gram of ice on Earth were to melt and enter the ocean I would still be 100 meters above new maximum high tide lines. The thing is, there is a heck of a lot more land that is above max melt tide line than there is below it and sea level rise even during extreme events is easily slow enough for a baby crawling along to escape. I just happen to have grown up here so I was blessed to start with by not needing to change anything about my living arrangements.

If Greenland collapses and West Antarctic Ice Sheet collapses at the same time that would bring levels up 7-12 meters from current and take on the order of 50 years.

For those who never studied probability "on the order of" means not less than 1/10th and not more than 10 times so on the order of 50 years means not less than 5 nor more than 500 but takes a lot less effort to type out lol. On the close order reduces the window of time to something like not less than 25 nor more than 250. There are actual mathematical formula's for doing the calculation but I am not going to dig out my ancient textbook to look them up, this is just rule of thumb kind of statements. A lot of people throw around "on the order of" and "On the close order of" interchangeably as if they had the same meaning and as if they meant within a few close value of the stated number.

[theluckycountry]

Tipping points are points where a system radically departs from it's normal behavior. I think of pushing a glass of water over by applying pressure with a fingertip, right at the rim of the glass. Slowly the glass begins to teeter over and the mass of water begins to shift across the vertical line projected from the edge of the glass in contact with the table. At a certain point 50% of the water is on one side of this line, 50 on the other, and once pushed passed this point the glass tips, gaining momentum quickly until it falls flat on its side. The glass has reached a new equilibrium and the water that was once in does the same across the table.

Unfortunately the global weather and ocean system is not so predictable, and no was was around last time Antarctica and Greenland were ice-free to tell us how how long the process took. Scientists use models, based on their own mathematical inputs, based on their own assumptions, based on what the climate and oceans were doing yesterday. Clearly their models didn't predict this years behavior so stated prognostications by an IPCC or other body are not that useful. What I have always done is take the science, which is valuable, and selected their worst case scenario, basing my future plans on that. Their worst case is still valid, if it wasn't they would not have included it.

What is the 'tipping-point' for ice melt? Does it even have one? There are certainly positive feedbacks, such as less ice leads to a warmer ocean, leads to more ice melt, but it's obviously all unpredictable. Like the path of a Hurricane is unpredictable. If I lived anywhere in say, Florida, I wouldn't plan my future on the forecasts we have been fed. Much of that state is very close to sea-level and was under water in the geological past.

[Newfie]

Here is a question.

What is the “tipping point” to achieve a sufficient human action to then achieve sustainability? (Hope I worded that clearly enough.)

Does one even exist?

My bet is “No.”. Or at least so far down the path as to be immaterial.

[jato0072]

Does one even exist?

My bet is “No.”.

Correct. We will burn every fuel we can get our hands on. I personally don't believe the narrative involving "climate change". The climate has always been changing. I am more concerned about the Elite restricting the remaining resources. War and conflict will be the response. One only needs to understand human history and behavior to see the future.

[Plantagenet]

I personally don't believe the narrative involving "climate change". The climate has always been changing.

Of course climate has always been changing.

But its never changed as RAPIDLY as it is now, thanks to all the CO2 humans have pumped into the atmosphere.

AND the speed of current global warming and climate changes makes it very very difficult for plants communities, animal populations, human society to adjust to the rapidly changing environment around them.

I am more concerned about the Elite restricting the remaining resources. War and conflict will be the response. One only needs to understand human history and behavior to see the future.

I agree with you that war and conflict are going to happen, and I think it will a direct response to the effects of climate change.

When changing climate gets to the point that it causes massive crop failures and famine is imminent, I expect quite a numbers of wars to start.



Cheers!

[theluckycountry]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/ ... t-records/
https://climatereanalyzer.org/clim/sst_daily/

The sea surface chart here mirrors the Winter ice formation chart of Antarctica above.

The Earth’s oceans have never been warmer. Every day since late March, the world’s average sea surface temperature has been well above the previous highest mark for that day. And there will be ripple effects:

No $hit

I did the supermarket thing this morning and had a conversation with a well dressed lady at the cheese cabinet. She was incensed at the price of her favorite cheese and refused to buy it. Another conversation with a dude holding a big jar of quality local nuts peanut-butter went similarly. I pointed to the fact that the other brands were offshore nuts of dubious quality and then proceeded to load 7 bottles into my basket (glass bottles they were) He looked at me gobsmacked and I said "well they aren't going to get any cheaper are they, and I have a spare downstairs fridge.

One day all this stuff is going to hard to get. Food is oil basically.

[careinke]

Hi everyone,

My Google Bard tells me that there are currently around 148.9 million square miles of land on Earth. I asked Bard to make a table showing the amount of dry land left in 10-foot increments up to 230 feet. This supports Tanandas' claim. Bard did say that there is a lot of uncertainty in his calculations, and that it was basically an estimate.

My brother-in-law and I have been discussing another possibility: a super-fast, simultaneous partial collapse of the Greenland and one of the Antarctic ice sheets. The theory is that this could cause sea levels to rise 25 feet in three days. We specifically discussed the effects this would have on our waterfront property, which is located at an elevation of 220 feet.

The logistics of just moving our small 40-acre compound would be very challenging. I'm pretty sure it would be a disaster for cities on the water. I'm thinking that the Puget Sound would not be very safe from a health standpoint for many years.

However, salvage operations could be quite lucrative.

Peace (Edited by Bard for spelling and grammar only)

[Newfie]

During my last work project I had the “opportunity” to review the 100 year flood plain for much of NYC. What came out is that much of the citys transportation infrastructure was built on low lying land, much of it on fill in marshy areas. That makes sense, all the higher land was taken when the trains came, and airports were even later. The place must have been a waterfowl heaven before development.

Years earlier I worked in the new rail tunnel into NYC. They raised the NJ portal to something like 12’ above mean sea level to guard against sea level rise. That was budgeted at $12 billion then. I recently heard it is at $45 billion-ish.

[kublikhan]

As wildfires raged across Southern Europe and North Africa, top UN climate scientists said on Thursday that it was “virtually certain” that July 2023 will be the warmest on record. July 2023 would likely “shatter records across the board”.

“Climate change is here. It is terrifying. And it is just the beginning,” said the UN chief, warning that the consequences are as clear as they are tragic: “children swept away by monsoon rains, families running from the flames (and) workers collapsing in scorching heat.”

[UN Secretary-General] warned that “the era of global warming has ended” and “the era of global boiling has arrived.”

Hottest July ever signals ‘era of global boiling has arrived’ says UN chief

[mousepad]

“Climate change is here. It is terrifying.

yes it is. Worst summer ever in my area. Rain, cold and more rain. Can't even have a BBQ and beer. Damn you, Global Warming. Damn you to hell!!

[Tanada]

As wildfires raged across Southern Europe and North Africa, top UN climate scientists said on Thursday that it was “virtually certain” that July 2023 will be the warmest on record. July 2023 would likely “shatter records across the board”.

“Climate change is here. It is terrifying. And it is just the beginning,” said the UN chief, warning that the consequences are as clear as they are tragic: “children swept away by monsoon rains, families running from the flames (and) workers collapsing in scorching heat.”

[UN Secretary-General] warned that “the era of global warming has ended” and “the era of global boiling has arrived.”

Hottest July ever signals ‘era of global boiling has arrived’ says UN chief

These kind of headlines are exactly why Joe6P is no longer taking climate change seriously as a personal problem. "Era of boiling" is ridiculously over the top given how small the death toll from the latest heat wave has been. I have railed against this sort of dire disaster is here prediction since this topic was new 16 parts ago!

Since 2000 there has been a drumbeat of disaster is here statements that have numbed Joe6P into complete complacency. As Jason Robards famously said "Constant alerts do not alert!". Robards was stationed on Oahu when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor and reported that after months of weekly alerts people stopped taking them seriously because you can only maintain excitement for a finite period of time. I saw his interview on the 50th anniversary of the attack and it has always stuck with me since then.

Since that 1991 special documentary I have seen Y2K through COVID reports of impending doom and in 98% of cases the reports vastly outweighed the actual damage done. Mount Pinatubo was going to put us into a "year without a summer". Mount Saint Hellens rumbled for a few months and it was portrayed as the next big disaster for the Pacific Northwest. I am a big fan of Al Gore and his movie An Inconvenient Truth, but several of the claims made in it have now passed their expiration date without coming true. Glacier National Park and Mount Kilimanjaro still have glaciers on their highest peaks. Greenland is not dropping so many more icebergs that it is a major hazard to navigation in the Atlantic. The Arctic Ocean was predicted to be ice free as early as 2013 but this year a decade later it still has a respectable sea ice cap. Despite all the dire COVID predictions the American death rate for 2019-2020 is barely a blip higher than it was from 2009-2018 on an annual basis. Why? Because most of the people (not all) who died of Covid-19 were statistically at the end of their lifespan and would have died from something else if they had not died from COVID!

The constant drumbeat of dire consequences if we do not all adopt the minimalist lifestyle last week at the latest are not helpful. They do not motivate people except possibly through depressing them and making them say "If its all over why should I change my ways now that it is too late?"