[Outcast_Searcher]

Fair enough. But I want to make one thing clear. If you have an income that is not growing AT LEAST 10% PER YEAR, you are losing ground, and experiencing reduced purchasing power. That average 10% annual inflation compounds rapidly. The charts above are in constant 2013 dollars, and are among the few that account for inflation. The huge numbers of people on government so-called "entitlements" are facing desperate circumstances as these simply do not increase due to the COLA (cost of living adjustment) which is based on the CPI (consumer price index), a deliberatly inadequate measure of inflation that excludes food and energy costs.

Now that (by the prevailing opinion here) the oil peak is in the recent past, we are looking at energy costs that will steadily increase along with increases in food and actually anything transported with fuels. Things are going to be worsening and these trends are long term.

I don't get it.

First, I still don't see any citation from you for your claim of 10% inflation annually in the US.

What charts above are you talking about? (Increases in family wealth are NOT an inflation measure. They're measuring things like wage increases, investment increases, etc, if those are the charts you mean.)

The CPI doesn't count food and energy because those are highly volatile and it is trying to show a relatively smooth and comprehensible measure of inflation. It doesn't count them when they're dragging the rate of inflation down either.

Higher oil prices MAY well continue to materialize over time. If they do, then to the extent that they accelerate inflation, then FUTURE inflation via the CPI will show the higher numbers. However, as we've seen on this site, predicting future oil prices over time with any accuracy is a very difficult thing to do.

It's been since the 70's that inflation has been even close to 10% overall for a decade.

https://www.minneapolisfed.org/communit ... rates-1913

Again, are you getting your 10% estimate from Shadowstats or where?

And again, when I look at things like housing, rent, food, oil, gasoline, basic clothing, cars etc. over time, the real world US inflation looks a LOT more like the CPI than what Shadowstats claims. Especially over several decades.

I acknowledge that both health care and college education inflation are MUCH higher than the CPI over time, but electronics deflation has also dragged prices for lots of things related to computers down, so they have deflation.

I get that you think the financial situation re certain minorities is unfair. But I just don't get that inflation is anywhere NEAR 10%, even if it seems like it's more than the CPI based on what some families buy.

As a sanity check, here's a piece on "marketbasket" inflation.

https://research.stlouisfed.org/publica ... e-average/

Per the article:

So if you look at the "everyday price index", it shows at about a percent over the CPI from 1995 to 2015. Still in the ballpark of the CPI.

If you look at the market basket index overall for urban consumers (blue line) you get about 3.7%.

Inflation isn't about how one feels about the economy -- it's about measuring how much prices really rise over time.

[KaiserJeep]

Try the inflation figures here instead: http://chapwoodindex.org/

If it were "only" the average 8-11% here in Silly Valley, I'd be ecstatic. But it's more than 13% per year averaged over the last 5 years.

This topic is OT in this thread, BTW.

[SeaGypsy]

One revelation of the more recent developments in the Human Genome Project was that something like 97% of human genetic diversity still occurs within Africa- so the suggestion Africans (wherever) are in general in some way inferior is ridiculous & absurd.

The centrality of housing to investment markets which has developed over the last couple of decades is hugely culprit to creating endemic poverty, more so than price rises in any other primary living requirement. I've written elsewhere here about the enslavement of people to landlords & banks via the housing market. The so called middle class (no capitals- not a proper noun)- is primarily in place as such through having consistently held real estate in growth regions (capital cities) since the post WW2 boom. The later the entry into the RE ownership, the more likely net poverty. Given that in most cases in developed countries the same gig is what's happening & that it's inflation based not on genuine shortage of supply, but on market manipulation, cost reduction in other areas of production- housing, both residential & commercial- is the final bubble. The GFC/ subprime crash was just a preliminary, sooner or later the big one is going to happen & things will have to change. Meanwhile the tinkering such as the subject of this thread is ultimately just shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic, ineffectively at that.

[KaiserJeep]

Who said anything about Africans being inferior? Like I said, I don't know anybody with the earning potential of an NBA player, an NFL player, or the Heavyweight Boxing Champion.

In the USA, Minorities as a group have less earning potential and wealth accumulation than do Whites, and comprise a growing underclass that is also occupied by Whites. However these things also exist on a Bell Curve, and people exist in poverty in all races, primarily because they never acquired a work ethic in childhood. Likewise there are people of all races in the priviledged high income 0.1%, and (the topic of The Atlantic article I linked to) in the 9.9% "elite" class. Some people in the government experience angst because the various races are not equally represented in all income levels. Those who are concerned include ME, and I have expressed myself freely in this thread.

Because you see, the solution that the French used during their revolution is always at hand. You can use a search engine to find plans for constructing a guillotine in your garage, or for printing a functional plastic gun on a 3D printer, or even building a nuclear weapon. Also, as a truck driver, you should easily understand the means to emulate the most deady acts of terrorism in recent years, which involved driving heavy trucks through densely packed crowded streets.

[Plantagenet]

Some people... experience angst because the various races are not equally represented in all income levels. Those who are concerned include ME

Every thinking person in American experiences angst over income disparities in our country. However, most can see there are multiple factors playing roles in creating those income disparities, and don't default to blaming everything on evil white racists.

Because you see, the solution that the French used during their revolution is always at hand. You can use a search engine to find plans for constructing a guillotine in your garage, or for printing a functional plastic gun on a 3D printer, or even building a nuclear weapon. Also... the means to emulate the most deady acts of terrorism in recent years, which involved driving heavy trucks through densely packed crowded streets.

Your suggestion that the solution to income gaps in the US is guillotines, guns, nukes and terror attacks is craziness.

The solution to income gaps is more and more people working hard in school, grinding for "A"s, going to college and majoring in a STEM field, and then going to professional postgraduate schools to become doctors, lawyers, accountants, scientists, techs, teachers, professors, real estate agents, dentists, managers at McDonalds, successful business people, etc. etc. Not to mention becoming plumbers, cops, electricians, truck drivers, etc. which often pay better then professional jobs.

The way to reduce income inequality is to see more people getting jobs that pay more so there is less income inequality.

Cheers!

[Cog]

The solution of the left is always violence Planty. History abounds with the evidence of it. The USA is unique though. Those who do not apologize for American exceptionalism and the superiority of Western Civilization have all the guns. LOL.

Proud Boys for the win.

[KaiserJeep]

Cog, you gave me my first laugh today. I have seldom been accused of being part of the "left". I suppose such things are relative, and from the position of a right wingnut, I would be considered to be left of center.

[Cog]

"Free stuff" must be paid for by someone. A key fact the left always leaves out.

[KaiserJeep]

"Free stuff" must be paid for by someone. A key fact the left always leaves out.

I fail to understand how this comment relates to this thread. Some forms of Reverse Racism involve selection preferences. "Entitlement" payments are a seperate topic.

[Cog]

More people need to go to work than school. Work gives you all the self-worth you will ever need. Idle hands and all that. We simply don't need more people with degrees in gender studies.

[KaiserJeep]

The problem with free education is that it is a far thing from the same as a GOOD education. Are not public schools free education? Some are good, like the toney Silver Creek neighborhood adjacent to mine. After one of the little darlings burned down our local elementary school while playing with a butane lighter, our local kids were sent over the hill to Silver Creek, just 2 miles away, and with more than enough empty classrooms in their newly-constructed building. They were so appalled at sharing the facility that they caused money to be dumped into the adjacent district's budget to hasten the fire repairs. Note however that their kids were not sharing classes with ours, just a building, and that our kids were accompanied by staff and school administration.

Both of those schools, I have no doubt, were miles and miles better than anything in nearby Oakland, or Watts, or Harlem. Public schools run the gamut from really good to really bad, and whether or not you choose to get an education, you have to have good teachers and a curriculum, or the good students go to waste. Saying "free education" is easier than doing it, and as the grades advance, the cost goes up, until the college/university level.

Let me say, I'm not willing to pay for anybody's education who just is not motivated to learn. I like W's idea of standardized achievement tests and uniform standards, and to He!! with local mores. Once somebody flunks out, allow them mandatory hard labor in public works until age 21. After all, they must have a motivation to learn.

[Plantagenet]

they must have a motivation to learn.

So it appears.

And thats where families come in. Families that value learning and try to instill a love of learning in their children by reading to them and showing that they care about culture and learning and success tend to turn out kids who are self-motivated to learn.

The "Head-Start" program was designed to provide enrichment to poor kids whose parents might not do the job of instilling a love of learning in their kids. Its hasn't worked. There still is no replacement for parents when it comes to motivating their kids to work hard in school.

Cheers!

[Outcast_Searcher]

Once somebody flunks out, allow them mandatory hard labor in public works until age 21. After all, they must have a motivation to learn.

One of the best ideas I've heard toward getting kids to behave in school and learn dovetails with the idea of the UBI (Universal Basic Income) in the US, from a friend of mine.

In order to become an "adult" entitled to the UBI at 18, you'd need to graduate from high school.
Oh, but if you want to graduate, you have to BEHAVE YOURSELF to reasonable standards, and do acceptable work.

Don't want to do that? OK, get out, but remember, at age 18, your friends will get the UBI, but you won't.

Not like parents paying kids for A's, exactly, but it beats kids mainly being lauded for being "cool" or good athletes.

...

I don't dislike your idea for incorrigible kids -- I just don't see our modern society being willing to accept that, so I'm suggesting a carrot instead of a stick.

Risk of poverty should be plenty stick enough, IMO.

[KaiserJeep]

The very idea of a UBI is one of the most destructive ideas that has ever been, right on a par with Hitler's "final solution" to the Jews. You are in effect wanting to apply to those in conditions of poverty the same solution that has been used to oppress minorities in America's inner cities.

One difference between the concentration camps of Europe and the government welfare ghettos in America is that the Nazi concentration camps were only in place for 4-5 years. Here in the USA, welfare payments have been used to oppress the inner city occupants for five generations. Now you are suggesting that we widen that solution to all those in disadvantaged circumstances everywhere.

That very idea is worthy of Himmler himself.

[Cog]

The left wants to enslave millions more. Outcast Searcher is not alone in his desire to sentence everyone to perpetual slavery. But yet he calls himself a moderate. Under what definition of the word moderate would that apply.

[Outcast_Searcher]

The very idea of a UBI is one of the most destructive ideas that has ever been, right on a par with Hitler's "final solution" to the Jews. You are in effect wanting to apply to those in conditions of poverty the same solution that has been used to oppress minorities in America's inner cities.

Yes, of course. Let's pretend that helping people have a decent income to get by on due to a disappearing job market for people without high job skills is "oppressing them".

No matter what was done, you'd be unhappy.

Better to let them starve?

Better to force them to conform to some standard and learn what "the man" says? (Go ahead and tell me that's somehow NOT oppression).

Better to just give them a bunch of money via welfare programs? And HOW exactly is that meaningfully different than the results of a UBI, except that the UBI is FAR simpler, more direct, easier to understand, and harder for the liberals to push to grow and lard on all kinds of pork over time?

Something else? Magic, perhaps?

Reasonableness or compromise do NOT seem to be your forte on this issue.

[Outcast_Searcher]

The left wants to enslave millions more. Outcast Searcher is not alone in his desire to sentence everyone to perpetual slavery. But yet he calls himself a moderate. Under what definition of the word moderate would that apply.

Under what definition of the word practical are you offering reasonable or effective solutions for a society where lower skilled jobs are rapidly going away?

It's far easier to complain than offer EFFECTIVE solutions to problems.

Why don't we ask the people who are losing jobs as robots take over what they'd prefer? Because it might cost you a little money? Gee, I'm so stunned.

[Outcast_Searcher]

That very idea is worthy of Himmler himself.

Yes, let's pretend that trying to help people get by in a disappearing jobs market is the same as killing people by the millions.

Do you actually THINK before you write such things? Do you actually expect to be taken seriously by rational people with such statements? Such statements seems to be seriously detached from reality, though congrats, the obvious inflammatory political motive is rather obvious.

[KaiserJeep]

Consider this. The places where the majority of people are using welfare to survive are hellholes. They are rife with crime, murders, gangs, drugs, abandonned street kids, and all manner of misery. It's no accident that lots of smug white people, relatively wealthy compared to the inner cities, favor ever-increasing give-aways of money, food, and housing. Indeed, these "free" things end up destroying any motivation to get educated or to get a job. As such, the people who advocate giveaway solutions are indeed the ultimate Rascists, and the most effective oppressors of our Minority underclass.

Indeed, I have thought a great deal about this, and concluded that the government policies to provide "relief" to the disadvantaged - whatever the superficial stated objectives might be - are the reason that slums exist and Minorities are oppressed. The primary architects of this opression, all the way back to Andrew Jackson, are the Democrats. Consider this: all through the Civil Rights era, every time they peeled back a KKK member's robes and looked inside, they never found a single Republican.

The most heinous Racsist of all, was that politician who found the other Democrats too conservative for his Socialist self, was Bernie Sanders. We certainly dodged a bullet there, had he become POTUS, we'd likely be on the verge of a race war after 3-4 years.

One last thought: If give-aways were any sort of solution, conditions in the inner cities would be improving, not deteriorating.

[Outcast_Searcher]

One last thought: If give-aways were any sort of solution, conditions in the inner cities would be improving, not deteriorating.

OK. I have no problem at all with the idea that a UBI won't work because it is a give-away, and give-aways for various reasons are a bad thing. That's a reasonable argument. Ironically, up to the point of the UBI discussion, I was consistently on your side re give-aways.

The thing that helped change my mind (and typical give-away liberals just HATE), is the idea of using the UBI to dismantle the vast majority of the EVER EXPANDING US welfare state, which is going to bankrupt us anyway, if we don't get it under control. (Just look at any credible long term US budget / debt projection based on the current system).

My concern is I'm not seeing credible workable solutions instead of the UBI. Just ignoring the problem is something we're good at, but leads to social disaster and then bankruptcy.