bonjaski wrote:interestingly you don't need more then 20mbd to move 2 billion 100mpg vehicles ...
frankthetank wrote:I think its a money problem. So many jobs in this country are service bases, that when the shit does go down, that the unemployed will rise in anger. You may have your solar panels and your fruit trees, but if your neighbor is dark and cold and hungry, i wouldn't doubt your house goes up in flames. Solar panels are expensive, and we (most) are in so much debt the way it is, i doubt anyone is going to pony up the bling to buy a new windmill and battery bank.
I think the rich will carry on as is (trips, planes, cars) and the middle class will join the ranks of the poor and most likely turn to chaos in a lot of the larger cities.
Reduced demand is coming, but it won't be voluntary, it'll be forced.
Ever try telling someone they should take a shorter shower or drive less...they don't take it kindly.
Veritas wrote:Couple points...
I also envision that petroleum is going to be with us for a long long time. What will change is the cheapness and abundance. So I'm not that worried about needing some of it to do windmills, PV's, and batteries. If we stopped burning it as transport fuel there'd be plenty around for petrochemicals and the like.
Veritas wrote:I'm not an expert in metallurgy but tell me again why it is we won't be able to make things like windmills without oil... pretty sure the greeks were smelting bronze a few thousand years ago, and I don't think they were doing it with canisters of gasoline?
mkwin wrote:pstarr wrote:Uranium supply is not a "technicality" and is not the only argument. There are lots of other arguments against nuclear, eroei, security, nimbyism, time-lag, etc. Breeder reactors are always just around the corner. I would not depend on them. Perpetual energy system? Other than thermodynamics and reality there are other impediments to this techtopian dream: an entire investment, industrial, economic world paradigm built on petroleum which is in decline.
Firstly - renewable intermittency is being solved: - http://www.usatoday.com/tech/products/e ... tery_N.htm
Secondly, I’m a regular reader of TOD and have never seen a peak-battery argument made. Surely the materials could simply be recycled and reprocessed?
On Nuclear, read here http://www.theoildrum.com/node/2323 and here http://www.theoildrum.com/node/2355 for a contrasting view which thoroughly answers most of your points. EROEI with nuclear are you kidding me??? Average oil EROEI is what 5 to 1 now? That’s less than wind and many times less than any conceivable nuclear system. Designs for breeder reactors exist and are doable now. The reason they haven't been commissioned is simple, they are uneconomical with the historic collapse in the uranium price. Thorium is also very abundant and can be used for fuel in slightly more expensive reactors but it hasn't happened yet because uranium is so abundant. However, from a technical point of view, they are available now. NIMBYism - In a post-peak world this won't be a problem. Lead in times are primarily a function of NIMBYism. Scalability yes, issue here. An insurmountable problem - I don't think so.
Nuclear is not ideal and I agree with the writer of the second article I posted the energy order should be the following:
First, conservation and energy efficiency. "Negawatts" are the cheapest and most underexploited resource we have;
Second, renewable energies, starting with wind. They are proven technologies, are scalable and wind is already competitive, price wise;
Third, nuclear. It’s the least bad way to provide the base load capacity we'll need in the foreseeable future;
Fourth, gas-fired plants. Gas is less polluting than coal, gas turbines are very flexible to use. Such plants will probably be needed (in places that do not have sufficient hydro) to manage the permanent adjustment of supply to demand that electricity requires;
last, coal should be dismantled as quickly as possible from its current high levels of use - and new construction should be stopped.
TheDude wrote:bonjaski wrote:interestingly you don't need more then 20mbd to move 2 billion 100mpg vehicles ...
Too bad the US is slouching towards a whopping 35MPG by 2020. A few years of shortage might get them off their butts but there are unfortunately obstacles in the way of implementing this as fast as we'd like to see.
mkwin wrote:frankthetank wrote:I think its a money problem. So many jobs in this country are service bases, that when the shit does go down, that the unemployed will rise in anger. You may have your solar panels and your fruit trees, but if your neighbor is dark and cold and hungry, i wouldn't doubt your house goes up in flames. Solar panels are expensive, and we (most) are in so much debt the way it is, i doubt anyone is going to pony up the bling to buy a new windmill and battery bank.
I think the rich will carry on as is (trips, planes, cars) and the middle class will join the ranks of the poor and most likely turn to chaos in a lot of the larger cities.
Reduced demand is coming, but it won't be voluntary, it'll be forced.
Ever try telling someone they should take a shorter shower or drive less...they don't take it kindly.
Yes many of those service jobs will go but there will be new jobs in engineering, construction, local manufacturing and agriculture. We will no longer import our socks from China so someone has to make them. Globalisation will go into reverse and we will return to a local economy.
I agree with you, I think the middle class in the developed world will see a fall in their standard of living.
Veritas wrote: I know that world energy demand is on the rise, but lets have a hypothetical situation where we could reduce demand drastically - how much would it have to be reduced by in order for renewable energy to fulfil our energy needs?
Veritas wrote: Is it really a matter of being "there's no way to resolve the problems associated with PO" or is it a matter of political will to curb energy use and bring more renewables online?
mkwin wrote: While the optimists believe we are in for economic depressions but will get though the other side the doomers believe we are in for a break down of society and the mass die-off of 4 billion people.
Veritas wrote:I guess what I wonder is how much of our current energy demand is completely unnecessary and could be easily cut back just by changing certain practices (i.e. using solid state lighting, not leaving computers/televisions/lights on when not in use, using lighter more fuel-efficient vehicles, better public transit, etc etc etc). If we "tightened our belts" (without radically altering our way of life), how much would energy demand fall ?
It strikes me that peak oil itself is meaningless without the context of demand. If we somehow cut our energy needs by 90%, suddenly having maxed oil and gas production today means a lot less than it used to, and we can continue as usual for centuries into the future.
But if renewables provide X amount of energy, and we change our behaviour to only require X amount of energy, then we have a sustainable energy system don't we?
Veritas wrote: But let's assume we could develop ways around enough of the problems and develop a half-decent hydrogen vehicle.
But it sounds like you, pstarr, think that capitalism and conservation can never coexist, and therefore the writing is on the wall.
MonteQuest wrote:Capitalism and conservation are like oil and water; they do not mix.
DavidFolks wrote:MonteQuest wrote:Capitalism and conservation are like oil and water; they do not mix.
Add a little soap, agitate....
MonteQuest wrote:Show me a business that can prosper by constantly cutting sales and without laying off workers.
MonteQuest wrote:mkwin wrote: While the optimists believe we are in for economic depressions but will get though the other side the doomers believe we are in for a break down of society and the mass die-off of 4 billion people.
No, the optimists deny and are ignorant of biology/ecology and overshoot, and the doomers are not.
DavidFolks wrote: A business doesn't have to constantly increase its volume of sales to thrive, it has to maintain a level of sales that keeps its workforce employed, and produces a profit.
Capitalism, strictly speaking, is not the problem.
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