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Read This Before Buying A New Vehicle

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Read This Before Buying A New Vehicle

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 26 May 2017, 13:38:40

A Great Time to Buy Used… But Not Because They’re Cheap

Eric Peters
May 24, 2017, 12:04 am

New technologies and growing government interference are going to increase costs all around.

You might want to buy a used car while they’re cheap — but not just because they’re cheap.

And cheap they are.

Because of unprecedented desperation tactics to sell new cars — including under-bid incentives, cash back offers, and “free money” loans at zero or nearly zero interest, which the car companies have had to resort to during the past year in order to fluff up wilting sales (and sales are wilting regardless).

When you make new cars so attractive — so cheap — to buy, used cars become even cheaper to buy.

It is hard to sell, for instance, a $17,000 3-year-old Camry, when you can buy a brand new one for around $22,000 out the door — especially when the payments on the new car are lower because the interest on the loan is less and because the payment on the new car can be stretched out over six or seven years, while the loan on a used car is shorter in duration — because of the lesser value and faster depreciation of the used car.

So…

But it’s not just it’s a great time to buy a used car as far as the deal you’ll get.

It’s a smart move, because of the hassle you’ll avoid.

Maybe not right away but down the road — probably just after the warranty coverage expires.

What’s happened is we’ve crossed a kind of engineering Rubicon. It has happened over the past two or three years — and there is probably no turning back, not unless regulatory reasonableness returns — and that doesn’t look likely. If anything, it is likely to become less and less reasonable.

The car companies have had to resort to design and engineering measures just as desperate and extreme as the financial measures to which they are resorting to fluff up sales. But in the case of the design and engineering measures, it is to placate federal regulatory ayatollahs, who continue to demand, among other things, that new vehicles achieve ever-higher fuel economy — and lower “greenhouse emissions” — irrespective of the cost involved.

It is why, next year, BMW will append a four-cylinder/hybrid drivetrain to all 5 Series sedans — and eliminate the six-cylinder/non-hybrid versions.

It is why every new-design car has a direct injected (DXI or GDI) engine rather than a port fuel injected engine. Automatic Stop/Start systems are pretty much standard equipment, which you can’t cross off the options list.

The latest automatic transmissions have eight — or even ten — speeds. Turbochargers, sometimes two of them, are the new In Thing.

Bodies are being made from aluminum rather than steel.

And, of course, there is “autonomous” driving technology — cars that semi-steer and park themselves, accelerate and brake on their own.

None of these things materially improves the performance — or even the economy — of the vehicle in a way that’s meaningful to the owner.

A car with DI and an eight-speed transmission might give you a 3-4 MPG uptick on paper vs. the same basic vehicle without these technologies.

That’s not nothing, of course.

But it doesn’t cost nothing, either.

Not much is said about the fact that the car costs more to buy because it has these technologies. You “save on gas” — by spending more on the car. The same logic used to peddle hybrids.

It’s interesting that this other side of the equation is almost never discussed and that the ayatollahs who smite us with their regulatory fatwas — so seemingly concerned about how much we’re spending on gas — never seem much concerned about how much we’re spending to cover the cost of their fatwas.

Up front — and down the road.

These turbocharged, direct-injected, stop-starting cars — with their eight and nine and ten speed transmissions and aluminum bodies — deliver the goods (MPGs) when new. Enough so that the car companies achieve “compliance” with whatever the latest federal fatwas are, at any rate.

But what happens as they get old?

I’ve written before about what’s already happening. About relatively young cars — less than ten years old, sometimes — becoming economically unfixable (that is, not worth fixing) when, for instance, the uber-elaborate transmission fails.

You have an otherwise sound car: an engine that will probably run reliably for another 100,000 miles, an un-rusty body and paint that still looks great. The overall car’s not a junker — but the transmission is junk. So you have it towed to the shop, expecting to get the tranny (not Caitlyn) rebuilt. And the guy tells you they don’t do that anymore. Rebuild — or repair.

They replace.

You must buy a new (or “remanufactured”) transmission, because they’ve become too complicated and time-consuming to deal with on a work bench. You are faced with spending $5,000 on a replacement transmission for a car that’s worth $8,000.

Gotcha.

Older cars made with economically sane five and six-speed transmissions remain economically repairable. But they do not make them new anymore. Not many, anyhow.

And not for much longer.

It is not just that, either.

Last week, I reviewed the last of the Mohicans — as far as full-size trucks. The 2017 Toyota Tundra. It is the only current-year, full-size truck you can still buy that does not have a direct-injected engine. This means it will never have a carbon-fouling problem — as Ford and others who have added DI to their engines, to squeeze out an MPG or three more, to please Uncle, have regularly been having.

Actually, it’s you — if you own one of these DI’d rigs — who will have the problem.

And be paying to un-crud your direct-injected engine, which may involve partial disassembly of the engine. This is not like changing the oil. Nor will it cost you $19.99, either.

Ford’s solution to the DI blues? It will be adding a separate port fuel injection circuit to its direct-injected engines next year. So, the vehicles will have two fuel injection systems. You’ve just double your odds of having a fuel system problem at some point.

The point here is it’s not just one thing; it is a synergistic multiplicity of things that are bringing into actuality the Planned Obsolescence people used to grumble about — but which was mostly not the case. Until just the past several years, most cars were usually economically repairable well into their senior years. It made sense to put, say, $2,000 for a rebuilt (four or five-speed) automatic into a car worth $8,000.

But with all the complex, fragile, non-serviceable, and hugely expensive-to-replace-when-it-fails stuff they are grafting onto cars to make them Uncle friendly, they become not worth fixing long before the cars themselves have reached their liver-spotted years.

The truth is that probably every car made since about 2015 is a Latter Day Throw-Away. It will run beautifully for about ten years. Just a bit longer than those $500/month payments we were making.

Then, some very expensive thing will fail, and you will be faced with a bill that’s not worth paying — or which you can’t pay.

How many of you have $5,000 available for a car repair? Keeping in mind this is cash due when services are rendered, not financed at low interest, either.

Meanwhile, the just-a-few-years-older cars without all that stuff can be kept going almost indefinitely — because almost anything that breaks or wears out can be fixed for a within-reason price.

These are the “sweet spot” vehicles made from — roughly speaking — the early-mid 1990s through the early 2000s.


All of the above, plus you will save the embedded energy of manufacturing a new car.

This is a direct cut & paste of this: https://spectator.org/a-great-time-to-buy-used-but-not-because-theyre-cheap/
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Re: Read This Before Buying A New Vehicle

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 26 May 2017, 15:35:47

Conclusion:

Happy motoring continues apace.

Peak-oil denied.

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Read This Before Buying A New Vehicle

Unread postby jedrider » Fri 26 May 2017, 15:45:23

Never have planet-killing machines been so inexpensive. That's why we're killing our planet. I even bought one.
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Re: Read This Before Buying A New Vehicle

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 26 May 2017, 17:00:37

A Great Time to Buy Used… But Not Because They’re Cheap

And yet, the things cited as signs of car doom are making cars better and loved by people who are into cars. A couple examples cited in the "list of 'concerns'":

Transmissions -- the 8 to 10 speed transmissions are getting so good an automatic is often faster than a manual with a highly skilled driver. Between that and saving fuel, it is making manuals hard to find -- even on many performance cars. Because by far, most people would rather have the performance and the fun of shifting with paddle shifters, if they want that.

Turbo-chargers. They are now getting much more reliable. So you now can have the fuel efficiency of a 4-banger, plus 6-cylinder performance when wanted/needed by revving the engine. Some "car-guys" hate this and the way it sounds, but normal drivers are tending to be very happy and the performance with better economy than a V-6 provides. Thus, it's getting harder to find V6's and especially V8's. (Many car enthusiasts still prefer the sound and consistent power of the larger NA engine, and are willing to put up with worse fuel economy. For everyone else, a car is a transportation device, and efficiency is an important factor in the purchase decision, as is cost to own.)

Whether it's objective data from the likes of Consumer Reports and JD Powers Surveys, or it's lots of videos/discussions on Youtube by car enthusiasts, the results are the same. In the real world, such trends are yielding more and better choices, which customers tend to like.

....

This looks more like FUD for doom to me than reality. If ideas don't work at first, manufacturers improve them. (See CVT transmissions, for example). If they still don't work well, then manufacturers do something else -- they're not going to just throw away their customer base to say they have "technology X".

But doomers have to try to project a negative image of how things are -- it's what they do.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Read This Before Buying A New Vehicle

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 26 May 2017, 17:43:57

The part about major components not being rebuildable is still a valid one. The dealership labor rates at Silicon Valley dealers blew past $250 per hour a decade ago. Keep in mind that what we are talking about is one certified Spanish-speaking mechanic supervising four or more illegals, in most shops. With those bench labor rates, replacing a $5000 transmission is the economical alternative.

I learned this the hard way. I owned an early 90's Jeep Cherokee with first generation ABS brakes, which then were a $350 option on the base vehicle. It was the color the wife wanted, so we bought it, even though we had not been looking for the ABS. After the warranty expired, we were faced with a $2800 brake job, because brake components were replaced not rebuilt, and we paid the then exorbitant rate of $160 per hour for labor to replace them. Note that a couple of years earlier, I had paid for a 4-cylinder engine rebuild for less money than that.

This is the world we live in now. Skilled labor has been replaced by exorbitant semi-skilled labor.

There was a seemingly bad transmission in my wife's current 2001 Jeep Cherokee a few years back. The dealership said it would be a $3800 charge to swap in a refurbished 4-speed auto transmission, using their diagnostic computer and retail parts prices. I took it to a mechanic I knew, who found a loose vacuum hose on the transmission in a hard-to-see spot, and did a $59 repair.

I suspect but cannot prove that the cause of the loose hose was the dealership routine 36,000 mile service a few days before the hose fell off.
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Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
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Re: Read This Before Buying A New Vehicle

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 26 May 2017, 18:28:46

I have a car over 10 years old. It has plenty of electronics in it. It has never had a major mechanical problem, just the usual wear and tear like brakes and shocks and underbody corrosion problems. In the old days this kind of reliably was something associated with Volvos, but now it's par for the course. So sure, maybe it is harder to service modern cars because they're more complicated, but you don't have to do it nearly as often.

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Read This Before Buying A New Vehicle

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 26 May 2017, 20:14:52

Well, have you ever had your brake fluid drained and replaced? Brake fluid is hydroscopic, it absorbs water. The water is held in suspension until the absorption limit is reached, then droplets of water exist in the system. When descending a mountain road, as the fluid temperature passes 212 degrees, the water becomes steam and the brakes fade, suddenly and completely.

Even assuming there is no mountain driving where you live, the droplets corrode the metal brake parts - lines and calipers and cylinders. You can easily see this. Modern brake fluid is clear as water. When water is absorbed, clarity is lost. When corrosion begins, the fluid turns amber from iron rust. When the fluid turns black, the suspended rust particles have abraded away the rubber seals. There you have the full spectrum of brake jobs, all the way from a $25 fluid change to a $2500 or more system rebuild.

The brakes work perfectly for a decade or more, then catastropically fail. In a sense they are more reliable, but if you neglect basics like fluid replacements, the result is more expense than older cars.
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Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
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