[Plantagenet]

Accusations of Western security contractors in Ukraine
Are-Blackwater-active-Ukraine

Who would pay for such mercenaries? Ukraine is broke.

Obama just gave the Ukrainians one billion dollars, but surely Obama didn't give them the US dollars so they can hire mercenaries?

[Sixstrings]

Russia may have access to TOP SECRET U.S. intelligence and battle plans from informant Edward Snowden who's currently granted asylum in Moscow

Edward Snowden may have given Russian information about U.S. security that could threaten the nation
Terrorists will be better able to study U.S. intelligence so that they can surpass it
The U.S. will need to revamp its intelligence agency
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2576339/Russia-access-secret-U-S-intelligence-battle-plans-Edward-Snowden-currently-seeking-asylum-Moscow.html

[Sixstrings]

Who would pay for such mercenaries? Ukraine is broke.

Obama just gave the Ukrainians one billion dollars, but surely Obama didn't give them the US dollars so they can hire mercenaries?

My sense is that they aren't that "broke." It's not like Somalia or something. It's a nation of 49 million people, government is operating. They were "broke" in the sense that they have been pushing default for months now and are up against it again.

Also doesn't help matters that the ousted government stole $70 billion from the country:
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/new-ukraine-leader-yatseniuk-says-ousted-government-stole-70b-n40076

Maybe oligarchs were put in as governors because oligarchs can hire their own security? I have no idea.

Whole thing is a real mess over there. As Dor says, there are no white hats, but there are degrees of bad too. The West certainly can't support / get behind the new gov cracking down on east ukrainian maidans.

Whole thing is such a mess, where does this lead, UN peacekeeping troops?

[Sixstrings]

From zerohedge:


convoy from Moscow to crimea

Pro-Russians forces laying down minefields:

Ukraine's Military Mobilizes, Prepares For Combat: Trucks, APCs, SAMs, Howitzers, Tanks Rolling Out

However, the Ukrainians, having already been mobilized for over a week, finally appear set to seize back the offensive:
The first clip below captured the 80th Airborne Regiment out of Lviv moving out, direction mainland, preparing to repel foreign attack.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-08/ukraines-military-mobilizes-prepares-combat-trucks-apcs-tanks-rolling-out

[ralfy]

About information on per capita income, from what I remember, the income of many of these economies is tied significantly to consumer spending and debt.

[Keith_McClary]

Accusations of Western security contractors in Ukraine
Are-Blackwater-active-Ukraine

Who would pay for such mercenaries? Ukraine is broke.

Obama just gave the Ukrainians one billion dollars, but surely Obama didn't give them the US dollars so they can hire mercenaries?

I would assume it came from the $5 billion "democracy building" funds, since they are describing the coup as the "democratic will of the people".

[dorlomin]

Russian oligarchs and their lap dogs are just p*ssed that another group of oligarchs has its hands deep in the tills. But more on the lies spread by the liar (and fascist) dissident.

She has already been the subject of one dirty trick. This week someone leaked a telephone conversation between the Estonian Foreign Minister and EU Foreign Affairs chief Catherine Ashton, which suggested that the doctor had said both protesters and police used snipers during last month’s clash. The revelation caused an uproar and called the protest movement into question.

Dr. Bogomolets insisted that she did not indicate that protesters used snipers. She simply relayed to the Estonian minister what she saw that day – protesters shot in the head and heart. “What I saw were people who were killed by snipers and only on [protesters’] side.”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/prominent-ukrainian-doctor-is-no-ordinary-revolutionary/article17384018/#dashboard/follows/

[radon1]

Russian oligarchs ... are just p*ssed that another group of oligarchs has its hands deep in the tills.

Perhaps, but this situation has been the case for over a decade.

But more on the lies spread by

evil vicious Estonian Foreign Minister, plotting "dirty tricks"?

[dorlomin]

But more on the lies spread by

evil vicious Estonian Foreign Minister, plotting "dirty tricks"?

I cant work out if your just stupid or actually dishonest.

[dissident]

http://lifenews.ru/news/128723

Right Sector thugs attack peaceful protestors in Kharkov with gunfire from a car, i.e. chickenshit driveby shooting. I linked to the video of anti-fascist protestors in Donetsk, it is quite clear that these protestors are peaceful. There is also a pro-regime demonstration as well, but nobody attacks it. Naturally there will be negligible coverage of this in the western media. So dorlomin can go back to his sanctimonious, bloody hypocrite, ignoramus and fascist-supporter bubble.

[dissident]

But more on the lies spread by

evil vicious Estonian Foreign Minister, plotting "dirty tricks"?

Hilarious. After all of dorlomin's attacks on tin foil hat doomers in the climate threads he turns out to be a tin foil hat lunatic himself.

To recap,

The fact that snipers were shooting from Hotel Ukraine is now established fact. They were shooting their own from the back when they were facing riot police. The snipers were also shooting the riot police as well. The BBC even has video of the hotel during these events and observation of what one of the snipers was wearing. There is also video showing who was occupying Hotel Ukraine at the time, it was Right Sector militants.

The official story from the new regime and its NATO backers is that the "protestors" were shot by riot police snipers from the front. People not blinded by prejudice and ignorance would ask "cui bono". Clearly dorlomin and his pals Six$ and Planted-agent are not even trying to evaluate the facts, they just project all sorts of irrelevant crap. We need more pictures of 1980s Poland.

[Sixstrings]

She has already been the subject of one dirty trick. This week someone leaked a telephone conversation between the Estonian Foreign Minister and EU Foreign Affairs chief Catherine Ashton, which suggested that the doctor had said both protesters and police used snipers during last month’s clash. The revelation caused an uproar and called the protest movement into question.

EDIT: rephrase, I promised to not inflame. Dor you're right on the money about everything. I need to give this topic up, but you really are right, you see things how they really are.

And you are very, very right how similar Russia is to the American Foxnews red state Southerner thinking that made the Iraq war possible.

Trust me on this, I ought to know, I'm really a reformed Limbaugh listener that voted for those wars and after I switched to D and voted O. I still have some relapses, sometimes. R's aren't all wrong either -- there's a lot of truth to the ultimate good of market forces, as we have seen right here with Russia and how it stopped Putin -- the MARKET imposed its punishment for instability, on the ruble and Gazprom stock and their stock market. Markets and trade can keep the peace.

So I very much respect you Dor, you have real principles and apply them everywhere with equal passion, not just anti-American.

I don't ever want to sound like a right wing nutter, or do propaganda, or drift off into Limbaugh-speak, so you're a wake up call to me. At the same time, ideologies aside, if you're getting bullied then it's just realpolitik that you've got to stand up to that somehow. So I agree with you, but, it's also true that Poland must always be defended, and the Baltics too, and Gasmon in the UK who may get his gas shut off from bullying (if Putin thinks he can defy market realities and shut off Gazprom's revenue, but the threat is there and Gasmon is worried about his gas isn't that bullying? And a bunch of crap? I don't want to be a right wing nut but what do you do in these situations, like the old oil embargo, and now Gazprom, when states use the threat of shutting the taps to achieve their foreign policy ends. What do you do???)

I'll leave this to you liberals, you need to figure out how to stand up and be strong yet not be right wing crazy either.

[Plantagenet]

The fact that snipers were shooting from Hotel Ukraine is now established fact

Only to Joeseph Goebels and his heirs spouting Russian propaganda.

You're welcome to be taken in by Russian lies and propaganda if your mind works that way, but don't delude yourself that the propaganda is factual.

[Sixstrings]

If Russia had just stayed out of Ukraine, then there wouldn't have been a problem. Western diplomats influencing the new gov would have made sure there were fair elections, the east would have had a vote, there's no doubt about that.

And IF NOT, *if* east ukrainians were really oppressed and then spontaneously started rallies -- THAT would have moral force. As it is right now, it's all stoked and inflamed and stirred up by Russia. Russia would have been wiser to stay out and wait for real demonstations -- but the truth is that Putin probably knows east ukrainians would have been fine with the new gov and western ties, and never would have rose up.

ALL of this "protect us russia" and clashes and violence started AFTER Russia came into Crimea.

It's going to devolve into a horrible civil war over there:

Pro-Russian 'self-defence' activists use a bat and a whip to beat a pro-Ukrainian supporter during clashes in Sevastopol


Pro-Russian (left) and pro-Ukrainian activists argue during a rally in Sevastopol


Pro-Russian activists have set up a round-the-clock picket on the square under a red Soviet flag

Fresh clashes in Ukraine: Russian activists attack pro-Kiev rally in Crimean port city of Sevastopol today as Ukrainian prime minister vows 'this is our land'
Pro-Russian and pro-Ukraine rallies come to blows in Sevastopol
Pro-Russians gather in Donetsk to demand a referendum for their region
Ukraine PM vows: 'This is our land and we won't budge a centimetre'
America and Europe threaten to impose sanctions on Russia
William Hague says Vladimir Putin has made a miscalculation
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2576814/Fresh-clashes-Ukraine-Thousands-pro-Russian-activists-flooded-Lenin-Square-rally-Crimean-capital-Simferopol-today-Ukrainian-Prime-Minister-vows-land.html

You know, I never noticed any pics pro-west ukrainians protesters beating people with a bat.

[Sixstrings]

Ukrainian survelliance drones flying over Crimea, photographing Russian troops digging in. One drone was shot at:

The only thing that is unclear about the following clip released by the Ukraine's Border Guard supposedly capturing Russians "digging in" on a key route linking Crimea to the rest of the Ukraine, is what is funnier: that the Russian soldier is "painting" the drone with a laser flashlight, or that according to the Ukrainians said action was evidence the drone was being "shot at" by Russian soldiers.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-09/ukrainian-drone-captures-video-russian-troops-fortifying-crimea

You know.. what's ironic with all this.. is that Germany has sold Russia a lot of top notch gear. So where is this going. Germans selling to both sides?

[Sixstrings]

US State Dept issues fact sheet on its website, "President Putin's Fiction: 10 False Claims About Ukraine:"

(actually this thing is 5 days old, it's gotten so much worse since then)

Fact Sheet
Office of the Spokesperson
Washington, DC
March 5, 2014

As Russia spins a false narrative to justify its illegal actions in Ukraine, the world has not seen such startling Russian fiction since Dostoyevsky wrote, “The formula ‘two times two equals five’ is not without its attractions.”

Below are 10 of President Vladimir Putin’s recent claims justifying Russian aggression in the Ukraine, followed by the facts that his assertions ignore or distort.

1. Mr. Putin says: Russian forces in Crimea are only acting to protect Russian military assets. It is “citizens’ defense groups,” not Russian forces, who have seized infrastructure and military facilities in Crimea.

The Facts: Strong evidence suggests that members of Russian security services are at the heart of the highly organized anti-Ukraine forces in Crimea. While these units wear uniforms without insignia, they drive vehicles with Russian military license plates and freely identify themselves as Russian security forces when asked by the international media and the Ukrainian military. Moreover, these individuals are armed with weapons not generally available to civilians.

2. Mr. Putin says: Russia’s actions fall within the scope of the 1997 Friendship Treaty between Ukraine and the Russian Federation.

The Facts: The 1997 agreement requires Russia to respect Ukraine’s territorial integrity. Russia’s military actions in Ukraine, which have given them operational control of Crimea, are in clear violation of Ukraine’s territorial integrity and sovereignty.

3. Mr. Putin says: The opposition failed to implement the February 21 agreement with former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych.

The Facts: The February 21 agreement laid out a plan in which the Rada, or Parliament, would pass a bill to return Ukraine to its 2004 Constitution, thus returning the country to a constitutional system centered around its parliament. Under the terms of the agreement, Yanukovych was to sign the enacting legislation within 24 hours and bring the crisis to a peaceful conclusion. Yanukovych refused to keep his end of the bargain. Instead, he packed up his home and fled, leaving behind evidence of wide-scale corruption.

4. Mr. Putin says: Ukraine’s government is illegitimate. Yanukovych is still the legitimate leader of Ukraine.

The Facts: On March 4, President Putin himself acknowledged the reality that Yanukovych “has no political future.” After Yanukovych fled Ukraine, even his own Party of Regions turned against him, voting to confirm his withdrawal from office and to support the new government. Ukraine’s new government was approved by the democratically elected Ukrainian Parliament, with 371 votes – more than an 82% majority. The interim government of Ukraine is a government of the people, which will shepherd the country toward democratic elections on May 25th – elections that will allow all Ukrainians to have a voice in the future of their country.

5. Mr. Putin says: There is a humanitarian crisis and hundreds of thousands are fleeing Ukraine to Russia and seeking asylum.

The Facts: To date, there is absolutely no evidence of a humanitarian crisis. Nor is there evidence of a flood of asylum-seekers fleeing Ukraine for Russia. International organizations on the ground have investigated by talking with Ukrainian border guards, who also refuted these claims. Independent journalists observing the border have also reported no such flood of refugees.

6. Mr. Putin says: Ethnic Russians are under threat.

The Facts: Outside of Russian press and Russian state television, there are no credible reports of any ethnic Russians being under threat. The new Ukrainian government placed a priority on peace and reconciliation from the outset. President Oleksandr Turchynov refused to sign legislation limiting the use of the Russian language at regional level. Ethnic Russians and Russian speakers have filed petitions attesting that their communities have not experienced threats. Furthermore, since the new government was established, calm has returned to Kyiv. There has been no surge in crime, no looting, and no retribution against political opponents.

7. Mr. Putin says: Russian bases are under threat.

The Facts: Russian military facilities were and remain secure, and the new Ukrainian government has pledged to abide by all existing international agreements, including those covering Russian bases. It is Ukrainian bases in Crimea that are under threat from Russian military action.

8. Mr. Putin says: There have been mass attacks on churches and synagogues in southern and eastern Ukraine.

The Facts: Religious leaders in the country and international religious freedom advocates active in Ukraine have said there have been no incidents of attacks on churches. All of Ukraine’s church leaders, including representatives of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate, have expressed support for the new political leadership, calling for national unity and a period of healing. Jewish groups in southern and eastern Ukraine report that they have not seen an increase in anti-Semitic incidents.

9. Mr. Putin says: Kyiv is trying to destabilize Crimea.

The Facts: Ukraine’s interim government has acted with restraint and sought dialogue. Russian troops, on the other hand, have moved beyond their bases to seize political objectives and infrastructure in Crimea. The government in Kyiv immediately sent the former Chief of Defense to defuse the situation. Petro Poroshenko, the latest government emissary to pursue dialogue in Crimea, was prevented from entering the Crimean Rada.

10. Mr. Putin says: The Rada is under the influence of extremists or terrorists.

The Facts: The Rada is the most representative institution in Ukraine. Recent legislation has passed with large majorities, including from representatives of eastern Ukraine. Far-right wing ultranationalist groups, some of which were involved in open clashes with security forces during the EuroMaidan protests, are not represented in the Rada. There is no indication that the Ukrainian government would pursue discriminatory policies; on the contrary, they have publicly stated exactly the opposite.
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2014/03/222988.htm

[Keith_McClary]

You know, I never noticed any pics pro-west ukrainians protesters beating people with a bat.

Yah, we're just hangin' out waitin' for the game to start.

[Keith_McClary]

If Russia had just stayed out of Ukraine, then there wouldn't have been a problem. Western diplomats influencing the new gov would have made sure there were fair elections, ...

Like in Libya where most of the candidates were eliminated by ad hoc revolutionary committees?

[Sixstrings]

Yah, we're just hangin' out waitin' for the game to start.

Show me a pic where those pro west protesters beat anyone with those bats.

I watched this thing from start to finish -- pics, youtube vids. If anything, I found it interesting how in the riot vids they never even wanted to hurt the police. They grab them, pull them down, but you never saw any violence and it was like people were trying to be careful.

The molotov cocktails were another thing altogether, but ... look man, I've documented this thing the whole time through these threads, I never saw pro west protesters beating anyone, not like the pics coming out now with pro russian protesters beating people.

The pro Russians aren't even beating police -- they're beating up their fellow ukrainians.

This looks brutal:



There's even A COSSACK in there whipping. wtf

[ralfy]

"Ukraine crisis is about Great Power oil, gas pipeline rivalry"

Resource scarcity, competition to dominate Eurasian energy corridors, are behind Russian militarism and US interference

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... -pipelines