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Quick question...

Discuss research and forecasts regarding hydrocarbon depletion.

Quick question...

Unread postby pilferage » Mon 29 Nov 2004, 17:59:32

In terms of the most simplistic modeling possible, couldn't a graph like this (R4)
http://wolf.readinglitho.co.uk/mainpages/reserves.html# (provided it was accurate)
be a very simplistic, but very useful tool.

Assuming we reach peak at about the time that supply can't keep up with demand, then (if this graph is correct) the peak can be projected (imho to within a few years) by guessing where the sum of the graph values reaches zero, correct?

After performing my own stunning analysis (i.e. eyeballing the damn thing ;)), it seems that past 2005 we'll only have about 2.5 years (~2008) before we hit peak. i.e. we'll be trying to use more than we discovered.
While the values for consumption are accurate, the discovered amount is suspect because of companies reserve estimates being intended for it's stockholders, as opposed to for analysists. Which implies that the peak might occur sooner.

Of course this doesn't take into account any large social changes and assumes a consistent consumption rate.

Am I bassackwards? Or does this seem logically consistent?
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Unread postby savethehumans » Mon 29 Nov 2004, 23:14:28

Sounds like your "stunning analysis" pretty much hits the bullseye, pilferage!

The clock is ticking, and there's so much left to do to prepare.... :(
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Unread postby pup55 » Tue 30 Nov 2004, 10:41:53

not to put too fine a point on it, I think the sum of the bars on graph R4 will equal zero when we are completely out of oil, not at the peak.

The graph only goes back to 1965 so does not reflect all of the big Arab fields that were discovered back in the 40's and 50's. So if you count all of that in, still awhile that we can run big deficits (right side of the graph) and still be pumping all of those old reserves.

It doesn't mean you are not right, though. Just that you can't get that info out of that particular graph.

Others should feel free to comment.
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Unread postby pilferage » Tue 30 Nov 2004, 23:10:52

You're right on pup, the peak should be somewhere around the midpoint (kicking myself). So, taking these numbers from here...

http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:WB ... =firefox-a

~2300 total gigabarrels worldwide, and circa 2000 ~860 gb's used.
Now here's where that graph actually becomes useful since it combines recent discovery and consumption. So in the last five years our net defecit has been at least ~100gb's, which implies we only have ~100gb's left until peak...
about 3 years @ ~30 gb's per year until we hit the 1150 gb used mark.

Naturally the usgs's estimate may be off, but since (provided the R4 graph is correct) our net defecit is ~25-30 gb's per year PO will hit 2008-2009 if current consumption continues and no economically viable alternatives are found.

Something else which would naturally push the peak farther ahead is the supply infrastructure. We're at what... ~82 million barrels per day? Can the infrastructure literally support a rise to around 100 million barrels per day...
it seems that a double peak, one from infrastructure, and one from actual supply, is on the horizon. Unless of course the oil companies don't put any more into infrastructure, then it seems like a nice big plateau is what we'll be seeing.

Comments, criticisms?
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Unread postby pup55 » Wed 01 Dec 2004, 22:07:56

Better, I think.

Now, how confident are you in the estimate of 2300 gb?

That's the critical number, isn't it?
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Unread postby pilferage » Wed 01 Dec 2004, 22:44:02

pup55 wrote:Better, I think.

Now, how confident are you in the estimate of 2300 gb?

That's the critical number, isn't it?


More to the point, how confident am I of the USGS's accuracy ~5 years ago? ;)
Not especially...
imo the best way to confirm this number would be to compare actual production for the last ~5 years to what production was expected to be from the USGS's survey (2000-2005)...
From that I can get a good estimate regarding how accurate the 2300gb value really is. Of course some one has prolly done all this, the question is, how do I find it? :?
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Unread postby pup55 » Fri 03 Dec 2004, 11:38:06

Don't know.

This paper from Lahererre seems to indicate that the reserves estimates are typically optimistic compared to what actually gets pumped.

http://dieoff.com/page183.htm

but it's from 97 or something and could stand an update.

The other problem is that actual production in this period might have been less than "full out" due to demand, therefore not tell you the story unless you can look at individual fields.
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Unread postby pilferage » Fri 03 Dec 2004, 16:16:04

This seems to be an almost impossible problem to model given that...
-On average, estimates in the past have been larger than the actual volume produced.
-There is no transparent accounting in most countries.
-Each well should be modeled individually based on political as well as geological factors.
-The use of steam/water injection and other methods can push the peak back, but when terminal decline sets in it has a very steep decline slope.
-What would the real cost (post peak) of alternatives such as shale oil be?
8O

We could've already reached peak (if you're refering to the halfway mark in consumption) because of our use of steam/water/CO2 injection, however, this will only push the date of our production peak back farther and result in a more pronounced decline! The large supply of alternative oil sources is especially missleading, it's current price will rise drastically post peak because it's extraction methods will increase in price, just like everything else will in our oil dependent economy.
It seems to me that the only people who can model this accurately are the various companies, and since I doubt they'll eagerly share information, this could easily turn ugly with little to no warning in a few years if we're unlucky enough... :cry:
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Unread postby pup55 » Fri 03 Dec 2004, 16:38:36

http://peakoil.com/fortopic2748.html

This post did not get many comments, but I think illustrates exactly what you are talking about.

If you copy the data into your favorite spreadsheet and graph it, you will be able to see it a little better.

For a brief period, production is a lot higher than the model would suggest, then the dropoff much more steep.
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Unread postby pilferage » Thu 09 Dec 2004, 17:18:09

In terms of my intuition regarding the situation, your model plus the larger increase/steeper slope seems spot on!
What do you use to model? I'm in the process of cutting my teeth on fortran77 when it comes to mathematical modeling., and was wondering if you would be kind enough to share the specific information you're using and what program your building/running it with?
Anything is appreciated! :-D
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Unread postby pup55 » Thu 09 Dec 2004, 19:26:35

The equation for the verhulst curve was borrowed from Roper and is cited in the "peak mart" thread below. Softlanding and Enviroengineer were helpful in refining the method.

We used ms-excel, regular old spreadsheet program, to generate the curve.

The "experienced based" curve is the indexed, average production, by year, of the 24 countries that have been past peak for at least 3-4 years. I took the peak year as 100, every year after that as a percentage of the peak, and then set all of the peak years to (1) and averaged the individual years. Some declines are fast, some are slow, so individual results really vary quite a big.

If you PM me with an email I will send you a copy of this spreadsheet. It has all the raw data in it.
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Unread postby 2007 » Fri 10 Dec 2004, 09:16:48

pup55 Posted: 2004-12-01, 19:07:56 Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Better, I think.

Now, how confident are you in the estimate of 2300 gb?

That's the critical number, isn't it?

About the 2300 GB, Aspo has 2400 and BP/ Francis Harper mentioned a similar number, so as far as estimating something you can't see, it seems a good starting point.
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Unread postby EnviroEngr » Wed 06 Apr 2005, 19:31:24

Pup, et al,

I've got a question put to me:

What I really need here is a good source for _global_ production. The peak of US oil production can be for factors beyond "peak oil". The US is seriously degenerating economically IMHO. The corporate/political masters of the US are such control freaks it is hard to do much of anything in the US. The fundamental premise of peak oil is that this phenomena is global--that world-wide production will fall say three years in a row. Now putting it in perspective there are other hydrocarbon resources like ultra-heavy crude and (more speculatively methan hydrates) that could be brought online with fairly modest technical initiatives. Global warming of course another risk-but that is fundamentally different than the peak oil risk.


that begs a well thought-out and level-headed reply. Can you help out?
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Unread postby pup55 » Thu 07 Apr 2005, 11:22:39

I will be happy to give an opinion. Others may wish to comment, of course.

a. First of all, no one really knows how much oil there is, and I really mean no one. It's all underground, and we cannot see it, and even the best geologists in the world have differences of opinion about how much there is. Furthermore, even if you do know how much oil there is, there is some question as to how much can be extracted, until you actually drill the hole and see what happens. So, there is a lot of uncertainty,even among the experts.

b. In this one instance, in my opinion at least, the government and corporations actually work in your favor. The fatcat large scale investors and people who run the huge mutual funds really hate to get scammed out of money by characters like this

big strike

who make claims of X amount of billions of barrels of oil under some barren piece of land somewhere. As a result, there are a lot of pretty rigorous SEC regulations set up to do auditing, independent geological estimates of your oil fields by experts, etc. to verify that you have as much oil as you say you have. These laws were put in place by the "powers that be" to give themselves some security .

c. As a direct result of (b) above, and also tougher regulations brought about by Sarbanes Oxley legislation in the wake of the corporate mega-scandals like Enron, the corporations right now are probably the most conservative and reliable source of reserves data, because the officers of the corporation want to avoid going to jail or getting fired like the guys from Shell Oil did last year. The laws in Europe are at the very least similar if not even better than the US laws in this regard.

d. For the actual "production" numbers, I think the data right now is actually pretty good because oil needs to be refined before it can be sold, and since the big corporations are running the refineries, they at least have to be straightforward about how much they are refining, so you can figure if the world is using X amount of finished products, and there is not some big quantity of product that has been "produced" i.e. "pumped" but not refined that no one knows about, you can get a pretty good idea about what "production" is for a given time period by looking at the amount of finished products produced. This data is sent out periodically by the US-Department of Energy and the International Energy Agency. There are other links on this website to direct you to this information.

e. Where you really get into trouble is in places that do not fall under US or European legal jurisdiction, namely any "national" oil company, the middle east, Russia and China. These characters can basically claim to have as many barrels of reserves as they want, and unless they agree to it, they do not need to fall under the same auditing standards as the US corporations, so there is no telling what is happening. An excellent presentation to describe this situation, and the resulting potential problems it causes is here:

Reserves Reporting

A particularly annoying example of a country that is irresponsibly reporting reserves is Oman, who everyone knows is in depletion, but their official annual reserves estmates are constant. Saudi Arabia consistently reports the same reserves year after year, regardless of how much they "produce".

This problem affects the reserve numbers a lot more than it affects the consumption numbers, though, because people have ways of tracking crude oil tanker shipments and refinery output so even though the Saudis and others will not tell us exactly what their "production" is, people have a pretty good idea of what these guys are producing, even though they do not allow any direct auditing.

f. My favorite source of energy data, because of a-e above, is the BP Statistical Review of World Energy. Annually, in June, BP (www.bp.com)puts out a summary of all of the reserves, production, etc. and publishes it in handy spreadsheet form so people like us can analyze it. Also, they include a lot of historical data, so as to let all of us make our graphs, etc. The information is derived from corporate and government data, and is consistent from year to year, so if they are off, they are presumably off by the same amount every year, so you can at least do consistent modeling.

g. The best source of information about unconventional energy and/or undiscovered reserves is the US Geological Survey, who, periodically, makes an estimate of all of the potential sources of petroleum products based on the presence of source rocks, seismic data, etc. They have done this for everyplace in the world that has been explored, and even made some estimates about the places that have not been explored, so it is considered "authoritative" by some. Here is the link for the 2000 report:

USGS 2000 World Energy

The annoying thing about this survey is the method they use to estimate "undiscovered reserves". Here is an example: They say that based on their computer modeling and monte-carlo simulations that there is a 95% chance that there is at least 333 gb of undiscovered hydrocarbon products in the US. By the same simulation, they say that there is a 5% chance that there is 1,107 gb in the US. The average of these two is a 50% chance there is 650 gb of hydrocarbon reserves, therefore, that's the number they assign to the US. Well, I am not personally particularly comfortable with some of this, so you have to take it with a grain of salt. They claimed that there are still nearly 5,000 gb of hydrocarbons (oil plus gas plus unconventional) still out there someplace, by this method.

h. Well, sorry to be long winded, but here you have the whole story. If you find a better source of information, please let us know. Simmons' point, which is correct, in my view, is the idea that we have based our whole society, financial and economic system, food supply, and everything else, on the unaudited word of some Saudi prince who claims he has X amount of oil in the ground and all is well. I will let you think about the ramifications of that for awhile.

Others may wish to comment.
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D.Kucinich GProd Post

Unread postby EnviroEngr » Thu 07 Apr 2005, 14:10:10

Thanks a ton pup. Between you and thorn, I think we've got a pretty good handle on it.

You can go here: http://www.kucinich.us/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=8008#8008 to see how it looks.
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