[Ayoob_Reloaded]

Shamelessly stolen from another message board, no idea whether any of this is (factual|true).

"You know how oil is refined right? The oil is heated and the different hydrocarbon lengths settle out at different levels in the cracking tower, gasoline being the product in the middle of the tower, propane at the top, tar at the bottom. I believe gasoline is 6-9 molecule chains, as the octane rating is based on 100 octane behaving like pure 8-molecule gasoline, 0 being pure 7 molecule.

Oil is composed of chains of from 1-30+ molecules, so you don't get 40 gallons of gas from a barrel of oil, you get a few gallons each of propane,gasoline,kerosine,diesel, lubricating oil, and tar, in amounts that vary depending on grade of crude, which is why Saudi light sweet is more expensive than north sea brent, you get more gas out of it.

It is true most fertilizers are heavily oil dependent, natural gas too, not to mention the enormous energy inputs necessary for modern farming.

As for the Anarcho-capitalism comment, I'll let that stand because there's no point debating whether or not I exist on the internet, particularly with someone who doesn't share my vocabulary..

If we have 60 years before peak oil arrives then I tend to agree there's not going to be a problem, if we have six months then we're staring global war in the face. None of us really know which is closer to the truth, those who have a clue are restrained by nondisclosure agreements, so we'll have to see how it plays out.

Peak oil is really not the issue here though, peak oil just represents a larger problem that we're going to have to deal with as a species eventually, the fact that there are limited resources available on this planet, and we're consuming them at faster than replenishment. I won't go into the monetary system that mandates continual growth again, but just say that without continual growth our economy collapses on itself from lack of liquidity, so civilization is a system requiring exponential growth operating in a finite environment.

And no, I'm not criticizing capitalism, rather the lack of."

Does anybody who knows what they're talking about verify/dispute the factual info contained within the above stuff?

[Petro]

This all seems like a straw-man argument. Wether grounded in fact or fiction irrelevancy seems obvious. Words like 'eventually', pretty much say it all [it's something that [I] don't have to cope with].

[Antimatter]

The refining info is more or less correct. You get about 20 gallons of petrol (ok gasoline ) from a barrel of light crude IIRC.

[linlithgowoil]

well, the description of refining is basic. but more or less a good general description of how refineries work.

as for the problem of using resources faster than we have them - yes - and i'd agree that Peak Oil is just one manifestation of this problem. I disagree that it is our money system that causes this - i believe its simply a human urge to want more and more stuff, and the money system was simply developed to reflect this.

humans cant operate any other way - they require more and more stuff - why? social status pssibly - anyone remember the following phrase from their early school years? - 'My dad has a bigger car than your dad' - this obviously shows an inbuilt (and possibly genetic) tendency to want more 'stuff' than people around us, which makes us feel better and more powerful.

what can we do about it? the only answer i can find is religion and faith in life after death. as soon as people stop believeing in justice after death, they start believeing that life is simply a competition for 'stuff' - and the person with the most 'stuff' at the end is the winner, and as long as you avoid blatantly killing people on the way to getting this 'stuff' - you've lived a good life, even though you may be a miserable bastard who'd sell his own grandmother.

thoughts?

[Doly]

Any anthropologist can tell you why your theory about a natural tendency to want more stuff is wrong.

It's true that people everywhere want better social status. In different societies, social status is measured in different ways. In some, it's related to the amount of stuff you have. In some, it's related to the amout of stuff you give. In those societies, people try to get rich to throw a big party when they give it all away, and gain lots of brownie points. There's plenty other things that can give you status in a given society: knowledge, participation in religion, being friends with lots of people, skill at manual jobs, etc, etc.

Even in a society that pushes people to get rich like ours, there are many examples of people that deliberately choose not to go that way. Which proves that wanting more and more stuff isn't any kind of natural genetic urge.

And we'd better teach our children a different set of values than the ones we were educated in, or they are going to be very, very, very angry children.

[lorenzo]

Any anthropologist can tell you why your theory about a natural tendency to want more stuff is wrong.

It's true that people everywhere want better social status. In different societies, social status is measured in different ways. In some, it's related to the amount of stuff you have. In some, it's related to the amout of stuff you give. In those societies, people try to get rich to throw a big party when they give it all away, and gain lots of brownie points. There's plenty other things that can give you status in a given society: knowledge, participation in religion, being friends with lots of people, skill at manual jobs, etc, etc.

Doly, excellent point. We must urgently learn from older and alternative economic systems. You mention gift economies; they're excellent to survive peak oil.
Only, I'm afraid that the American materialistic way of life will be here for quite a while; it's now entering China and India. More advanced societies (Europe, North America) are more and more leaving this simplistic materialism behind.
The quest for alternatives won't be simple though.
Besides the gift economy, there's the "wealth in people" paradigm, but, in an overpopulated world, this won't work either.
Finally, some upper classes have already picked up the "less is more" idea, but not consistently, and it looks more like a fashion that doesn't change any fundamentals of our materialistic economy.

[linlithgowoil]

It's true that people everywhere want better social status. In different societies, social status is measured in different ways. In some, it's related to the amount of stuff you have. In some, it's related to the amout of stuff you give. In those societies, people try to get rich to throw a big party when they give it all away, and gain lots of brownie points.

how is this any different from getting rich and keeping most of it all to yourself? you're still striving to get as much 'stuff' as you can - thus using the same mindset and gobbling up the same resources.

anyway, i was talking about the western way of life which, when people get a sniff of it, they throw themselves into with gay abandon lapping it up like there is no tomorrow.

[lorenzo]

Please find more info on refinery ratios, here:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandf ... w214.shtml



What Is Made from a Barrel of Oil?

Crude oil can be refined into a number of petroleum products. The amount of each product differs significantly between countries. In Europe, where diesel fuel use is prevalent, 36% of the refinery yield is diesel and only 20% is gasoline. In North America, only 23% of the refinery yield is diesel and 41% is gasoline. The OECD Pacific countries have a higher yield of kerosene than the other OECD regions.

[Aaron]

[khebab]

1 barrel= 42 gallons of oil, it means you can get 44 gallons of distillate from 42 gallons of oil ! I was rather expecting some losses from the refining process!

[DomusAlbion]

1 barrel= 42 gallons of oil, it means you can get 44 gallons of distillate from 42 gallons of oil ! I was rather expecting some losses from the refining process!

I imagine that there are some catalysts and solvents thrown into the mix.

Does anyone know?

[JoeW]

well, the description of refining is basic. but more or less a good general description of how refineries work.

I would have to agree with the exception of the 8-molecule deal being octane. Clearly this individual has no grasp of organic chemistry. Octane is the chemical name for an 8-carbon alkane: C8H18 (1 molecule containing 8 carbon atoms, 18 hydrogen atoms)
I find it irritating when individuals pretend to have knowledge that they clearly do not.

I disagree that it is our money system that causes this - i believe its simply a human urge to want more and more stuff, and the money system was simply developed to reflect this.

I disagree. I believe that the money system was created to make certain people rich and powerful.

the only answer i can find is religion and faith in life after death. as soon as people stop believeing in justice after death, they start believeing that life is simply a competition for 'stuff' - and the person with the most 'stuff' at the end is the winner, and as long as you avoid blatantly killing people on the way to getting this 'stuff' - you've lived a good life, even though you may be a miserable bastard who'd sell his own grandmother.
thoughts?

As long as you're asking for thoughts, I respectfully disagree. Religion and faith are not the answers, but instead designed to make you believe that life is not a competition for stuff..but if stuff isn't important, then why pass around the collection plate? they want our stuff...meanwhile, certain individuals (capitalists) are quietly acquiring all of the stuff. Life *is* a competition for stuff. Death is often the result of not having enough stuff--like food, water, shelter, and energy. Is life a lot more than stuff? Yes. But the material things will always be an important issue.

[nth]

You can have all the stuff in the world, but power is what you need at the end of the day. As the best business man can tell you, what you earn can be taken away by the powerful.

Old economies are more reliant on power than money. Chinese feudal society have merchant class on the lowest, yet they used monetary system. European feudal society doesn't use money and material goods, but before contracts with town folks, they use power in the form of status to get stuff.

etc....

So basically, we need a monetary system that charges a value for energy. Right now, the price you pay for energy is not related to amount of energy you get, but by how costly it is to harnest it.

The oil men charge you for how much to explore, drill, process, ship it to you, but they don't have to pay for the oil and the little fees/taxes they pay are not equivalent to the energy content of the oil.

Same thing with NG.

Once we have a tax system to charge energy producers for the content of the energy, we will never get optimum efficiency by relying on market/money to save us.

[FoxV]

lorenzo and aaron your graphs are excellent. Is it possible to find graphs for Venezula's extra heavy, Canada's Tar sands, and the US's Oil shale (as well as cost to process a barrel please )

The pie in the sky'ers always resort to these sources of oil in their arguments, and it would be really great to to see how these sludge's of crap compared to good 'ol sweet and light.