[gg3]

Trespam: the phrase I use for Iraq before the current war is, "it was under military containment." That is, it was incapable of threatening us. Saddam's dictatorship, disgusting as it was, kept in check those elements that would have caused the chaos that is a favored nesting-place of terrorists. The UN inspectors were a tripwire against any moves toward external aggression. And our own Air Force (perhaps with allies at the time, I can't recall) was routinely taking out any of Saddam's installations that were seen as posing any threat whatsoever.

What we did, in Colin Powell's terms, was "break it." We broke open the walls and the slime oozed out all over the place, and festered and seethed and grew more infectious by the moment. And at the same time we missed the opportunity to help Afghanistan become the kind of example that would have inspired the region.

Maybe there's a way to rescue a more constructive outcome from the morass. Bush has four more years to prove his hypothesis. The world doesn't have to worry about another such US misadventure elsewhere; we've got our hands full with Iraq. In my opinion we should give Bush the leeway to follow through on his Iraq plans and see what happens. If he succeeds he will have overcome my scepticism, and any improvement in conditions in Iraq can only be good for the Iraqis.

[trespam]

I agree. We broke it. We fix it. If we succeed, Bush will go down as a great president. Even with all the screwups (there are many). I can't stand the guy, but wish him the best. We have to succeed at this point.

[Specop_007]

P.S.

If you want peace, you have to do the unthinkable. Kill everyone not of YOUR mindset. That means if your a white christian, you kill all blacks, hispanics, muslims etc. If your Muslim arab, kill all whites, christians etc.
As long as people exist who are different, you will not have peace. As unfortunate as that may be.

I just wanted to point out that this sort of thinking is insane, and heavily racist/intolerant, despite the "As unfortunate as that may be" at the end.

Specop let me just say that if the 51% who voted for Bush hold views even similar to your own, then Nov.2 2004 should go down as the most tragic day in american history. Far worse than either 9/11 or Pearl Harbour.

I'm done, time for bed

And as a reminder to those who post here, hate speech and racist remarks will also get you deleted.

How about posting the truth. The very, very simple truth of it is as long as people of differing backgrounds/religion/whaty have you exist, there WILL BE VIOLENCE. I'm not so much promoting genocide as simply stating the very sad state of affairs the human race is in. To deny it is to deny that which we are.

[trespam]

How about posting the truth. The very, very simple truth of it is as long as people of differing backgrounds/religion/whaty have you exist, there WILL BE VIOLENCE. I'm not so much promoting genocide as simply stating the very sad state of affairs the human race is in. To deny it is to deny that which we are.

Unfortunately, there are always differences between people, one way or another. And the violent people will always find an excuse to single out yet another group on which to inflict harm.

No people of different race? Go after the people who can roll their tongues. The people who are double jointed. Bifurcation is endless.

[Specop_007]

How about posting the truth. The very, very simple truth of it is as long as people of differing backgrounds/religion/whaty have you exist, there WILL BE VIOLENCE. I'm not so much promoting genocide as simply stating the very sad state of affairs the human race is in. To deny it is to deny that which we are.

Unfortunately, there are always differences between people, one way or another. And the violent people will always find an excuse to single out yet another group on which to inflict harm.

No people of different race? Go after the people who can roll their tongues. The people who are double jointed. Bifurcation is endless.

Hey man, dont shoot the messenger here, shit people! I'm simply telling you how it is, *I* didnt make the damned rules for the Planet!!

No no, people who can roll their tongue, thats a useful talent. Trust me.

[MonteQuest]

In my original post, I did not mention “conservativesâ€

[Matrim]

gg3, actually I was serious (although I'll admit that doesn't neccessarily make me right).

that the world needs us as an example of a place where individual liberty is of supreme value.

Now I must ask: are you serious? Because I must say, I can think of probably 5 countries in which personal freedoms are greater than the United States, off the top of my head. And I would guess it's probably more like 10.
You want an example of freedom, look at Sweden. Or Holland, or even Canada (although I'd say less and less by the year). America just isn't up there anymore IMO. The loss of Civil Liberties in America is appalling, and the honest truth is that the majority of the world now considers America to be the greatest threat to their security, so what's your definition of a "rogue state"?
As for a push towards one world gov't? They've been moving that way for decades, now they will become open about it. This step had to come eventually, and the less resistance from the people the better. Quite frankly most of the world immensely disliked America before this election. After this election I think most of the world HATES America, and probably a good quarter of the American people just want the fuck out. (Actually I have no fact to base that 1/4 of americans thing on so I SHOULD take it back, but it's probably true so I won't ) I just don't think it hard to believe that the powers that be will use America's hideous unpopularity to further the goals that they have been perpetuating for over a century.

Also I want to make it clear, just because I think this scenario is likely, doesn't mean I want it to happen. I happen to like americans, I know many and find most to be much friendlier than us supposedly friendly Canadians (whom to often seem to believe we are better than everyone else). I just think the American public has been horribly misinformed, and the picture it has painted the rest of the world isn't good. Most people don't seem to view you guys the way I do, they just think you're stupid and arrogant.

Anyway that's my thoughts on that......
Peace

[Oilgood]

What good would it do to kill everyone not of your mindset? Do you even truly have a mindset to call your own? Is there even a "you" in the first place, or are "you" an aggregation of condtionings and elements which are ultimately impersonal? Even if you kill all those who disagree with you, you will still have to live with yourself, the fact of your own existance. Are you at peace even with yourself? Hell can be other people, true, but it can also be yourself.

[Oilgood]

Dear GG3,
The USA is an example of "a place where individual liberty is of supreme value"? Try telling that to the African Americans..................

[Specop_007]

Dear GG3,
The USA is an example of "a place where individual liberty is of supreme value"? Try telling that to the African Americans..................

Oh jeez not this.

[Oilgood]

Yep, that's right Specop. No matter how much you groan about it, this is a FACT of US history that will ALWAYS be part of what the USA is: for almost a century the blacks were held as slaves in the land of the "free", then for almost another century after that they had no vote, and only got the vote after alot of resistance from whitey and a huge stink being kicked up. Btw, how are the Native American's doing at the moment? The treaties they signed with the white man are worth even less than fiat paper currency.
So before we all get carried away with marvelling at what a beacon of liberty the US is, we might do well to remember the, um, finer details of the history of the United States. The US Constitution and Bill of Rights may be beacons of liberty, but to make the same assertion for the US itself, even today is, well, a bit hard to swallow.

[Josephus]

Good points, Oilgood. NO system of rule or government is guiltless or free of bloody hands, even our beloved Republic.

[gg3]

No denying the fact that slavery was immoral and evil. But also no denying another fact that liberals prefer to ignore: the Europeans got the whole idea of slavery from African kings, who practiced it widely! Slaves were "trade goods." Once the Europeans and Americans picked up the bad habit, the rest followed from there. And it was not "racism" when African societies did it to each other, was it?

Matrim, I also don't doubt that what you say about ten other countries is true. In fact I can cross the border to Canada and my right to legal monogamy is recognized, whereas here it is not. But that is precisely my point about the competition among the ideologies of democracy and liberty. In Canada I am equal and more free; here I am presently less-than-equal and less free. By the way it also used to be illegal for slaves to marry. Blunt facts of life. And plenty more where those come from.

And yet this competition among the free nations, for the evolving definition of freedom, is what keeps each free nation from sliding too far back down the slippery slope toward despotism. Each needs the others for this reason. As in the marketplace of economics, competition builds strength in the marketplace of ideas.

Monte, can you provide a cite for your closing quote? Which official, and where was it said or written? That stuff is awfully scary, sounds like a weird form of triumphalism, and has a ring of similarity with the kinds of stuff we used to hear from dictators in the 20th century.

[big_rc]

No denying the fact that slavery was immoral and evil. But also no denying another fact that liberals prefer to ignore: the Europeans got the whole idea of slavery from African kings, who practiced it widely! Slaves were "trade goods." Once the Europeans and Americans picked up the bad habit, the rest followed from there. And it was not "racism" when African societies did it to each other, was it? .

You are not correct in your description of the origins of slavery. Europeans did not pick up the "whole idea" of slavery from African kings. Pick up your Bible and read Genesis and the plight of the Hebrews in Egypt. Also there are plenty of versus in the New Testament concerning slavery. Additionally, slavery was widespread in early civilizations such as the Romans for example. To say that Europeans were introduced to slavery from Africans ignores thousands of years of human history. That's just not true. (Now with that said, there is plenty of blame to go around for all groups, religions and ethnicities for the Trans-Atlantic slave trade. Nobody, including Africans, has clean hands.)

Now slavery (as we Americans know it) was completely racist and could not have existed in this country without some type of easily discernible way to differentiate people. That is why the US continually fostered the illusion of race in order to divide certain groups based on superficial appearances and also unify certain divided ethnicities (e.g., Italians & Irish) under the banner of "whiteness". African slavery was based on ethnicity not race (and after spending time in Africa, you would be suprised how easy it is to differentiate certain ethnicities).

Slavery committed by both societies was dead wrong but the institutions were maintained by totally different mindsets and worldviews.

[MonteQuest]

Monte, can you provide a cite for your closing quote? Which official, and where was it said or written? That stuff is awfully scary, sounds like a weird form of triumphalism, and has a ring of similarity with the kinds of stuff we used to hear from dictators in the 20th century.

It is from an article by Ron Suskind in the New York Times Magazine, Oct 17th:

In the summer of 2002, after I had written an article in Esquire that the White House didn't like about Bush's former communications director, Karen Hughes, I had a meeting with a senior adviser to Bush. He expressed the White House's displeasure, and then he told me something that at the time I didn't fully comprehend - but which I now believe gets to the very heart of the Bush presidency.

The aide said that guys like me were 'in what we call the reality-based community,' which he defined as people who 'believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. 'That's not the way the world really works anymore,' he continued. 'We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality - judiciously, as you will - we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.'

http://forsdick.dyndns.org:8080/articles/17BUSH.html