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My Utopian dream!

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

My Utopian dream!

Unread postby Devil » Thu 11 Aug 2005, 08:15:07

On a UK "Sustainability" netlist, one member wrote this:

The US approach to climate change outlined below seems to me to be a more sensible and practical approach than relying on the essentially political/emotive Kyoto Protocol that could still leave us with the effects of climate change albeit slightly affected.

August 5, 2005

Department of Energy Releases Vision & Framework for the U.S. Climate Change Technology Program
WASHINGTON, DC -- In a speech before the Climate Policy Center in Washington, D.C., David Conover, Director of the Department of Energy's Climate Change Technology Program (CCTP), today announced the release of the department's Vision and Framework for Strategy and Planning report on behalf of Secretary of Energy Samuel Bodman. The report provides strategic direction and guidance to the 10 Federal agencies developing new and advanced global climate change technologies.

The Vision and Framework document is organized around six complementary goals: (1) reducing emissions from energy use and infrastructure; (2) reducing emissions from energy supply; (3) capturing and sequestering carbon dioxide; (4) reducing emissions of other greenhouse gases; (5) measuring and monitoring emissions; and (6) bolstering the contributions of basic science to climate change. The document also outlines actions needed to achieve these goals.

"The Vision and Framework is a comprehensive strategy that promotes the use of technology to reduce greenhouse gas emissions," Secretary Bodman said. "It provides guidance and direction, along with goals, to Federal agencies involved in climate change research and development. By bringing together the varied expertise of agencies throughout the federal government and establishing a plan for the future, the Vision and Framework will guide us for years to come."

Mr. Conover said, "It has become increasingly clear that meeting the global challenge of climate change will require development and deployment of advanced technology in the energy field. This Vision and Framework provides an overall strategy to guide and strengthen our technical efforts to reduce emissions."

CCTP's activities form the technology component of a comprehensive U.S. approach to climate change, which also includes short-term actions to reduce greenhouse gas emissions intensity, advancing climate science, and promoting international cooperation. The technologies being developed under CCTP, including hydrogen, carbon sequestration, renewable energy sources, and advanced nuclear and fusion energy, have the potential to transform the way energy is produced and consumed.

The Climate Change Technology Program was established by President George W. Bush to strengthen and coordinate research and development efforts in the climate change arena and to accelerate the development and eventual deployment of the technologies needed to both power economic growth and to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

To view the Vision and Framework document, please visit the Climate Change Technology Program website at: http://www.climatetechnology.gov.

Media contacts:
Anne Womack Kolton, 202/586-4940
Drew Malcomb, 202/586-5806

Number: R-05-218


I replied to this thus:
Kyoto has many weaknesses but, at least, it is a small but both practical and practicable step in the right direction. I have looked carefully at this "new" approach. It is a masterpiece of spindoctorate art but promises not one blind thing towards a practical resolution of the problem. In fact, the USA policy is one of making things progressively worse, especially by placing increasing use of fossil natural gas on the agenda. In fact, NG is worse than even coal for greenhouse gas emissions.

I have done some calculations and, from the data available, it would seem that we have to cut fossil-fuel GHG emissions by about 58% just to maintain status quo and about 65% to see a sizeable improvement within a matter of decades. (I wonder whether some UK government scientist didn't do the same for Tony's goal of 60% by 2050???)

To achieve this, we need to take more than a namby-pamby Kyoto or a wordsmith's waffling in the USA. We need to have the courage to do this by, say, 2020 by
a) stopping all fossil fuel power stations throughout the world
b) implementing a maximum of constant and variable renewables power stations, consistent with a reliable supply
c) implementing MOX nuke power stations and fast breeder reactors, with an infrastructure to allow the present electricity supply to be doubled
d) removing all private cars with a consumption > 4 l/100 km from the road
e) encouraging biofuel manufacture, where the resources make it practicable, but not at the cost of reducing food production
f) stopping all fossil fuel consumption in private households for heating or cooking; carbon-free electricity will do the job
g) mandatory thermal insulation to a high standard in all buildings
h) no transport of goods by road vehicles, except in a local radius
i) a high-speed rail network à la TGV for the intercity transport of people and goods, with good RSR-style rail networks radiating outwards from each TGV hub
j) no inland air travel for distances <1000 km; the TGV would be more convenient and faster
k) a 100-200% tax on all air tickets (half deductible for bona fide business expenses)
l) all sports events (athletics, football etc.) must be performed in daylight and all car parking closed for 20 km around (certified handicapped persons excepted), with adequate public transport feeding the sites (also for large exhibitions and other venues)
m) all appliances and light bulbs etc. must be high-efficiency types
n) recycling should be factored according to the holistic environmental impact and not according to the economics (WEEE and RoHS are stupidly worded and will cause more environmental harm than they will prevent)
o) a carbon tax imposed on ALL fossil fuel producers/users of €5/kg of equivalent CO2, including on that needed for non-fuel purposes, such as petrochemicals, plastics, fertilisers etc. and on all fuel losses (emissions, evaporation, leakages etc.)
p) scrap ALL subsidies, world-wide, in all sectors but especially in energy (including food production); economics would go back 100% to the rules of supply and demand.
q) etc.

Tough, utopian, but necessary!
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Re: My Utopian dream!

Unread postby EnergySpin » Thu 11 Aug 2005, 10:59:08

p) scrap ALL subsidies, world-wide, in all sectors but especially in energy (including food production); economics would go back 100% to the rules of supply and demand.

How would you ensure that the above measure does not tank food production? Some of the subsidies are used to maintain production of foodstuff/infrastructure that would have to be imported otherwise.

In addition how do you ensure that this measure does advance renewables/nuclear unless you have "outlawed" fossil fuel power plants . Is this the meaning of "a) stopping all fossil fuel power stations throughout the world " ?
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Re: My Utopian dream!

Unread postby Optimist » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 18:15:15

f) stopping all fossil fuel consumption in private households for heating or cooking; carbon-free electricity will do the job

This does not jive. Why waste precious clean electricity on heating and cooking? It is not very efficient either. How practical is "carbon-free" electricity? Here's a better idea:
f) Replace NG networks with biogas.

I don't think "carbon-free" is practical or worthy of pursuit. CH4 is a better way of storing energy than H2. -CH2- (diesel) is better yet. The challenge is to convert from fossil carbon to renewable carbon.
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Re: My Utopian dream!

Unread postby JudoCow09 » Fri 19 Aug 2005, 23:43:22

Maybe society would buy into it if they knew what they were in for. Maybe the US should deprive its citizens of gas for, say, a week and tell them afterwards it'll be like this all the time if they don't start acting, well, smart. Then again, the government could just tell them and cause widespread panic. :twisted:
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Re: My Utopian dream!

Unread postby Devil » Sat 20 Aug 2005, 04:57:32

JudoCow09 wrote:Maybe society would buy into it if they knew what they were in for. Maybe the US should deprive its citizens of gas for, say, a week and tell them afterwards it'll be like this all the time if they don't start acting, well, smart. Then again, the government could just tell them and cause widespread panic. :twisted:


Good idea :lol: :lol:
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Re: My Utopian dream!

Unread postby Starvid » Sat 20 Aug 2005, 07:12:56

Optimist wrote:
f) stopping all fossil fuel consumption in private households for heating or cooking; carbon-free electricity will do the job

This does not jive. Why waste precious clean electricity on heating and cooking? It is not very efficient either. How practical is "carbon-free" electricity? Here's a better idea:
f) Replace NG networks with biogas.

I don't think "carbon-free" is practical or worthy of pursuit. CH4 is a better way of storing energy than H2. -CH2- (diesel) is better yet. The challenge is to convert from fossil carbon to renewable carbon.


Carbon-free kicks ass.

Why waste precious natural gas on heating or cooking? Instead use carbon-free nuclear electricity.

(Or for heating, use cooling water from your local steam plant. About 2/3 of the plant energy is wasted to the cooling water, which is almost never used. Using these 2/3 instead of wasting them is the greatest energy saving measure society can do).

The issue is reducing carbon use. It doesn't matter if this is done with renewable carbon or electricity. Remember, the big issue is tranportation.
Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
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Re: My Utopian dream!

Unread postby Macsporan » Sat 20 Aug 2005, 08:02:47

A thoughtul and inspired program. Thanks Devil :-D
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Re: My Utopian dream!

Unread postby evilmonkeyspanker » Sat 20 Aug 2005, 09:08:53

I may be mistaken, but nuclear power is done with uranium I believe it would not take long to reach our uranium peak with this plan
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Re: My Utopian dream!

Unread postby Devil » Sat 20 Aug 2005, 09:43:52

auctionmonster wrote:I may be mistaken, but nuclear power is done with uranium I believe it would not take long to reach our uranium peak with this plan


Not at all, if you read what I wrote under c) a little more carefully. There is plenty of uranium and thorium to supply the world's needs for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. For more details, do a search on this forum. It has been discussed n times already and it would be redundant to start this same subject again.
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Re: My Utopian dream!

Unread postby Optimist » Thu 10 Nov 2005, 16:29:58

Why waste precious natural gas on heating or cooking? Instead use carbon-free nuclear electricity.

Q: Why didn't I think of that?
A: Well, what do you do with all that "carbon-free" radio-active waste? OOPS!
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Re: My Utopian dream!

Unread postby nero » Thu 10 Nov 2005, 17:16:09

Perhaps I can ask this question here,

Wht is the most efficient way to transmit energy, as natural gas in a pipeline or as electricity over a wire?

I've always been attracted to the idea of local electricity production in a SOFC fuel cell with heat recovery. However Devil here is advocating electricity and steam distribution instead of simply distributing natural gas for the local production of steam and electricity. Surely natural gas distribution is more efficient than that.

Now I understand the idea that natural gas is a GHG but there are methods to artifically produce a synthetic gas given an energy source so perhaps keeping our local infrastructure to distribute gas and implementing local electricity production (with heat recovery) and centralized gas production (from nuclear) makes more sense than centralizing electricity +heat production scrapping our natural gas distribution and implementing a steam distribution system.

That's my utopia.
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Re: My Utopian dream!

Unread postby Caoimhan » Thu 10 Nov 2005, 17:47:33

Optimist wrote:
Why waste precious natural gas on heating or cooking? Instead use carbon-free nuclear electricity.

Q: Why didn't I think of that?
A: Well, what do you do with all that "carbon-free" radio-active waste? OOPS!


What radioactive waste?

With Gen IV nuclear plants that do reprocessing, there's very little of it.

Large amounts of nuclear waste are a product of our once-through Uranium fuel cycles. We just need to change the way we do fission. (Many countries besides the U.S. have already begun).
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Re: My Utopian dream!

Unread postby Starvid » Thu 10 Nov 2005, 21:13:32

Optimist wrote:
Why waste precious natural gas on heating or cooking? Instead use carbon-free nuclear electricity.

Q: Why didn't I think of that?
A: Well, what do you do with all that "carbon-free" radio-active waste? OOPS!


1. Reprocess
2. Transmute

Devil: Very inspirational list! :)
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Re: My Utopian dream!

Unread postby 0mar » Thu 10 Nov 2005, 22:37:41

Optimist wrote:
Why waste precious natural gas on heating or cooking? Instead use carbon-free nuclear electricity.

Q: Why didn't I think of that?
A: Well, what do you do with all that "carbon-free" radio-active waste? OOPS!


Waste is overhyped. It's a big deal, but your average coal power plant puts out way more pollutants, waste and even radioactive materials into the air than does a nuclear power plant. The waste issue is really overhyped by the anti- Nuclear lobby to derail nuclear use.
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