kublikhan wrote:Oh you are right! Your points have NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with limits to growth! How silly of me!
Electric cars produce less CO2 than petrol vehicles, study confirmsElectric vehicles produce less carbon dioxide than petrol cars across the vast majority of the globe – contrary to the claims of some detractors, who have alleged that the CO2 emitted in the production of electricity and their manufacture outweighs the benefits.
Some individuals and governments question whether these technologies are worth expanding. The study, published on Monday in the journal Nature Sustainability, produced a decisive yes. Scientists from the universities of Exeter, Nijmegen and Cambridge conducted lifecycle assessments that showed that even where electricity generation still involves substantial amounts of fossil fuel, there was a CO2 saving over conventional cars.
EPA: Electric Vehicle MythsResearchers at Argonne National Laboratory estimated emissions for both a gasoline car and an EV with a 300-mile electric range. In their estimates, while GHG emissions from EV manufacturing and end-of-life are higher (shown in orange below), total GHGs for the EV are still lower than those for the gasoline car.
ralfy wrote:kublikhan wrote:Oh you are right! Your points have NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with limits to growth! How silly of me!
The main reasons for using EVs is that they lead to lower carbon emissions.
ralfy wrote:But they don't because they need a lot of fossil fuels for manufacturing, and so do the infrastructure needed to use them, and they need minerals which are also affected in the same way as fossil fuels.
ralfy wrote:Why's that? Because of diminishing returns: increasing amounts of energy needed to obtain decreasing amounts of fossil fuels and minerals and of lower quality, which are both needed to make EVs and infrastructure to use them.
kublikhan wrote:
The Cars, Trucks on the Road Are Older Than EverBetween 2013 and 2022, 6.6 percent of electric vehicles in operation were scrapped. During that same time, just 5.2 percent of combustion vehicles met their maker.
Plantagenet wrote:If EVs have accidents at the same rates as ICE vehicles, it's possible a high percentage ( ca. 40-75%?) of all EVs will be removed from the roads years earlier then the models assume due to inability to get insurance after being in minor accidents .....and that would play hell with all of the models that claim to show how much carbon will be produced by EVs, because absolutely none of them take this significant problem into account.
That’s happening despite the fact that a higher percentage of electric vehicles are leaving the population when compared to combustion powered vehicles. Between 2013 and 2022, 6.6 percent of electric vehicles in operation were scrapped. During that same time, just 5.2 percent of combustion vehicles met their maker. So, on the whole, if you got the feeling electric vehicles are a bit more disposable than ICE vehicles, you’re not technically wrong.
You got it right. EVs are scrapped at a higher rate than ICE. EVs tend to have higher repair bills after an accident. If the repair bill is too high, the insurance company will be more inclined to total the car rather than authorized repairs. But the scrappage numbers are an order of magnitude smaller than Plantagenet was making them out to be. There was less than a 2% difference between EVs and ICE. Plantagenet's thought experiment was throwing around numbers like a 40%-75% difference.Newfie wrote:I am confused, I thought the quote supported the argument that EV’s were more prone to failure. Maybe not a lot, and maybe it will improve as the industry matures, but for now they fail at a higher rate.
Did I miss something?
Insurance losses – comparison of electric vehicles and their conventional counterpartsIn 2015, the Highway Loss Data Institute (HLDI) first published insurance loss results comparing electric vehicles with their conventional counterparts (HLDI, 2015). That research found collision, property damage liability, and comprehensive claim frequencies for electric vehicles with gasoline powered variants and the Nissan Leaf to be lower than their comparison vehicles. The results for Tesla differed.
Under collision and PDL coverages, the studied electric vehicles with exact conventional counterparts had lower claim frequencies, higher claim severities, and lower overall losses than their comparison vehicles. In comparison, the Tesla Model S always had higher claim frequencies, claim severities, and overall losses than large luxury cars. When mileage was considered, claim frequencies grew even larger for the Tesla. The higher claim severity for the Tesla Model S may possibly be attributed to the battery replacement cost of approximately $16,000.
AAA Raises Tesla Insurance Premiums, Citing ‘Higher-Than-Average’ Claim Rates2017 - AAA is raising insurance premiums for the Tesla Model S and Model X based on data indicating higher claim frequencies and higher average costs for claims, according to Automotive News. Premiums for Tesla electric cars could increase by up to 30 percent, the insurer said. AAA made its decision after noticing abnormally-high costs for Teslas in its own data.
Musk says Tesla repair costs are down2023 - Tesla CEO Elon Musk said earlier this week during the company’s 2022 Q4 earnings call that Teslas are beginning to have cheaper collision repairs and are now less expensive to purchase. Lower repair costs come from Tesla offering auto insurance and adjusting the design of its cars and their software, Musk said. When discussing repairs, Musk said, “First, the best repair is no repair, avoid the accident entirely, which since every Tesla comes with the most advanced active safety in the world, whether or not you buy Full Self-Driving, you still get the intelligence of Full Self-Driving for active safety, active collision prevention. “Most accidents are actually small. They’re like a broken fender or scratched side of the car… But we’re actually solving how to get somebody’s car repaired very quickly and efficiently and back in their hands. …those improvements actually apply then to old cars.”
“…by Tesla operating insurance for our cars at a competitive rate, that makes the other car insurance companies offer better rates for Teslas so it has a bigger effect than you think because it improves total cost, or insurance costs, even when they don’t use Tesla Insurance because now the GEICOs of the world have to compete with Tesla and cannot charge outrageous insurance for Teslas.” Musk added that small changes in bumper design are “improving the logistics of providing spare parts needed for collision repair” and bringing costs down.
kublikhan wrote:You got it right. EVs are scrapped at a higher rate than ICE. EVs tend to have higher repair bills after an accident. If the repair bill is too high, the insurance company will be more inclined to total the car rather than authorized repairs. But the scrappage numbers are an order of magnitude smaller than Plantagenet was making them out to be.Newfie wrote:I am confused, I thought the quote supported the argument that EV’s were more prone to failure. Maybe not a lot, and maybe it will improve as the industry matures, but for now they fail at a higher rate.
Did I miss something?
There was less than a 2% difference between EVs and ICE. Plantagenet's thought experiment was throwing around numbers like a 40%-75% difference.
Insurance losses – comparison of electric vehicles and their conventional counterparts2015 - The higher claim severity for the Tesla Model S may possibly be attributed to the battery replacement cost of approximately $16,000.
AAA Raises Tesla Insurance Premiums, Citing ‘Higher-Than-Average’ Claim Rates2017 - AAA is raising insurance premiums for the Tesla Model S and Model X based on data indicating higher claim frequencies and higher average costs for claims, according to Automotive News. Premiums for Tesla electric cars could increase by up to 30 percent, the insurer said. AAA made its decision after noticing abnormally-high costs for Teslas in its own data.
Insurance losses of electric vehicles and their conventional counterparts2020 - The current study is an update of previous Highway Loss Data Institute (HLDI) studies on insurance losses for electric vehicles in 2015, 2016, and 2017. The current study expands on the prior studies by looking at injury coverages for the first time and exploring the differences and changes in claim severities in more detail. The prior study (HLDI, 2017) found collision and property damage liability (PDL) claim frequencies for electric vehicles to be significantly lower than their conventional counterparts, while claim severity tended to be higher. However, the higher claim severity associated with electric vehicles from the earlier studies (HLDI, 2015; 2016) has attenuated over time.
The results of the current study (shown below) are consistent with the findings of the prior research. Electric vehicles continue to show significantly lower collision and PDL claim frequencies compared with their conventional counterparts. The increases in collision and PDL claim severity associated with electric vehicles have continued to attenuate, with the collision result no longer statistically significant. Electric vehicles were also associated with lower claim frequencies under all three injury coverages.
Musk says Tesla repair costs are down2023 - Tesla CEO Elon Musk said earlier this week that Teslas are beginning to have cheaper collision repairs and are now less expensive to purchase. Lower repair costs come from Tesla offering auto insurance and adjusting the design of its cars and their software.
2023 - Ford Motor Co (F.N) said it has simplified its battery module repair process and developed an easy way to replace the battery pack tray if the outside is damaged.
General Motors Co (GM.N) said its new Ultium batteries are designed to be repaired at the module level, which is "significantly less expensive than replacing the entire battery pack." It also allows third-party access to battery data.
Nissan Motor Co (7201.T) said individual modules in its EVs can be replaced.
kublikhan wrote:There is no "new change in insurance company policy" to start strapping EVs.
theluckycountry wrote:The EV will reach its market saturation and continue to be popular, until fossil fuel depletion makes them uneconomic to build.
theluckycountry wrote:The big lie is that they will replace the ICE fleets because they don't burn oil.
theluckycountry wrote: They need mountains of oil and coal, even after they leave the showroom floor. They are like Bitcoin in that respect. Bitcoin looks simple and economic, until you see how much electricity it uses for each transaction.
kublikhan wrote:So I guess all those life cycle analysis studies that studied this issue in depth got it wrong eh Ralfy? Good think you are here to set the record straight!Electric cars produce less CO2 than petrol vehicles, study confirmsElectric vehicles produce less carbon dioxide than petrol cars across the vast majority of the globe – contrary to the claims of some detractors, who have alleged that the CO2 emitted in the production of electricity and their manufacture outweighs the benefits.
Some individuals and governments question whether these technologies are worth expanding. The study, published on Monday in the journal Nature Sustainability, produced a decisive yes. Scientists from the universities of Exeter, Nijmegen and Cambridge conducted lifecycle assessments that showed that even where electricity generation still involves substantial amounts of fossil fuel, there was a CO2 saving over conventional cars.EPA: Electric Vehicle MythsResearchers at Argonne National Laboratory estimated emissions for both a gasoline car and an EV with a 300-mile electric range. In their estimates, while GHG emissions from EV manufacturing and end-of-life are higher (shown in orange below), total GHGs for the EV are still lower than those for the gasoline car.
ralfy wrote:That's because LCAs don't consider overproduction, overconsumption, the use of oil for mining, manufacturing, and shipping, and diminishing returns.
That's clearly seen in your sources.
ralfy wrote:
That's because LCAs don't consider overproduction, overconsumption, the use of oil for mining, manufacturing, and shipping, and diminishing returns.
That's clearly seen in your sources.
theluckycountry wrote: If the EV was a winner they wouldn't be manufacturing hybrids.
kublikhan wrote:Real world numbers do not come close to jiving with your thought experiment:The Cars, Trucks on the Road Are Older Than EverBetween 2013 and 2022, 6.6 percent of electric vehicles in operation were scrapped. During that same time, just 5.2 percent of combustion vehicles met their maker.
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