Cog wrote:No bills are being passed. Dems too busy impeaching the president to worry about things that actually affect the nation.
"Government small enough to be drowned in a bathtub." Your memory is short, evidently.
Cog wrote:No bills are being passed. Dems too busy impeaching the president to worry about things that actually affect the nation.
Newfie wrote:The cost of leaks may Or may not be inconsequential. In places like arid Arizona water is a scarce resource, some places they have to produce it from desalinization plants. In the SW USA people fight over water rights.
In Philadelphia they had pretty good access to water so the cost does not show on the production side. Although it ain’t cheap either. The cost comes in the damage to streets and buildings, etc.
Yet this misses my greater point, that our incompetence is catching up with us in demonstrable ways, the utilities are failing.
It’s rather silly to ban new construction gas pipe lines when there is no mandate to fix the existing lines. We can blame the electric company for starting fires, but we have not required them to adequately maintain their system. Look at the Detroit water fiasco.
IMHO this demonstrates a generalized segregation of our governance. Or maybe it was always this bad and we just accept it?
Outcast_Searcher wrote:
But the thing is, unlike most voters, I highly VALUE safe and reliable electric power, water, and natural gas service, and I'm willing to PAY for it as long as my money is being used wisely and honestly to maintain and improve the system, vs. lining various folks' pockets who can be bribed, who will steal, etc.
jedrider wrote:Cog wrote:No bills are being passed. Dems too busy impeaching the president to worry about things that actually affect the nation.
"Government small enough to be drowned in a bathtub." Your memory is short, evidently.
Newfie wrote:The cost of leaks may Or may not be inconsequential. In places like arid Arizona water is a scarce resource, some places they have to produce it from desalinization plants. In the SW USA people fight over water rights.
In Philadelphia they had pretty good access to water so the cost does not show on the production side. Although it ain’t cheap either. The cost comes in the damage to streets and buildings, etc.
Yet this misses my greater point, that our incompetence is catching up with us in demonstrable ways, the utilities are failing.
It’s rather silly to ban new construction gas pipe lines when there is no mandate to fix the existing lines. We can blame the electric company for starting fires, but we have not required them to adequately maintain their system. Look at the Detroit water fiasco.
IMHO this demonstrates a generalized segregation of our governance. Or maybe it was always this bad and we just accept it?
Newfie wrote:Yet this misses my greater point, that our incompetence is catching up with us in demonstrable ways, the utilities are failing.
Subjectivist wrote:Are you aware that feeding the exhaust from a natural gas fired power plant through a heat exchangers gives you tons of potable water? For every molecule of CO2 produced burning methane you produce two molecules of H2O vapor.
Newfie wrote:The cost of leaks may Or may not be inconsequential. In places like arid Arizona water is a scarce resource, some places they have to produce it from desalinization plants. In the SW USA people fight over water rights.
In Philadelphia they had pretty good access to water so the cost does not show on the production side. Although it ain’t cheap either. The cost comes in the damage to streets and buildings, etc.
Yet this misses my greater point, that our incompetence is catching up with us in demonstrable ways, the utilities are failing.
It’s rather silly to ban new construction gas pipe lines when there is no mandate to fix the existing lines. We can blame the electric company for starting fires, but we have not required them to adequately maintain their system. Look at the Detroit water fiasco.
IMHO this demonstrates a generalized segregation of our governance. Or maybe it was always this bad and we just accept it?
EnergyUnlimited wrote:Subjectivist wrote:Are you aware that feeding the exhaust from a natural gas fired power plant through a heat exchangers gives you tons of potable water? For every molecule of CO2 produced burning methane you produce two molecules of H2O vapor.
I would not consider such water "potable" without rather extensive treatment.
Even then I would hesitate to call it "potable".
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
Tanada wrote:EnergyUnlimited wrote:Subjectivist wrote:Are you aware that feeding the exhaust from a natural gas fired power plant through a heat exchangers gives you tons of potable water? For every molecule of CO2 produced burning methane you produce two molecules of H2O vapor.
I would not consider such water "potable" without rather extensive treatment.
Even then I would hesitate to call it "potable".
It is pure condensed steam, just what kind of treatment do you think it would need?
EnergyUnlimited wrote:Tanada wrote:EnergyUnlimited wrote:Subjectivist wrote:Are you aware that feeding the exhaust from a natural gas fired power plant through a heat exchangers gives you tons of potable water? For every molecule of CO2 produced burning methane you produce two molecules of H2O vapor.
I would not consider such water "potable" without rather extensive treatment.
Even then I would hesitate to call it "potable".
It is pure condensed steam, just what kind of treatment do you think it would need?
That would be true, assuming that NG is a pure methane or mixture of it with neutral gases like nitrogen and that combustion is complete.
But this is not the case.
There are also other hydrocarbons there, in rather small quantities but still, also traces of sulfur compounds.
https://www.uniongas.com/about-us/about ... atural-Gas
Incomplete combustion of these can result in formation small amounts of toxic compounds.
Nitrogen from air can form some nitric oxide and nitrogen dioxide during combustion and these may subsequently react with incomplete combustion products of hydrocarbons already present.
This can result in formation small amounts of organic nitro compounds, derivatives of substituted hydroxylamine, amines and nitrosoamines.
None of these are good to health and some are quite bad.
Treatments to get rid of such impurities could be rather complex and expensive relatively to amount of water produced.
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
Tanada wrote:Compared to all that multiple types of contamination the trace chemicals in condensed natural gas exhaust are either a very much easier problem to deal with or not a problem at all after the water passes through filtering systems.
EnergyUnlimited wrote:Tanada wrote:Compared to all that multiple types of contamination the trace chemicals in condensed natural gas exhaust are either a very much easier problem to deal with or not a problem at all after the water passes through filtering systems.
Filtering is of no use if one want to remove soluble impurities.
Microbiological methods are mostly used but plenty of impurities are not biodegradable (or only slowly so).
Application of certain rather desperate measures to reclaim sewage water does not imply that these practices are safe.
It would be interesting to collect analytical data from such water (together with records of spikes of different chemicals which have passed by from time to time).
It would also be interesting to collect epidemiological studies of populations drinking such water and compare it to control groups.
Personally, if living in an area which must resort to such measures, I would look to move.
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
Tanada wrote:You are making a boatload of assumptions, first about what chemicals may or may not be mixed into the condensed steam and second how difficult they may or may not be to remove.
By properly choosing the type of bacteria in the organic digestion portion of the pretreatment process you can eliminate just about any organic materials in the condensed steam including all those amine connected organics you mentioned.
EnergyUnlimited wrote:@Tanada,
Just to clarify from where benzene may come in NG burnout products:
4CH4 + 3O2 ---> 2C2H2 + 6H2O
3C2H2 ---> C6H6
First reaction is always taking part to a degree during burning NG. Under right conditions it can be made to be a main pathway of methane burning and it is used in industrial production of acetylene.
Second reaction proceeds at 600-900*C and benzene with other aromatic hydrocarbons as byproducts is produced.
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