ralfy wrote:Neither is seen in current circumstances.
dohboi wrote:Ibon wrote: "The demographics are not looking very good for you homophobic, culturally diverse phobic, xenophobic obsolete baby boomers"
Well put. I think that's why they seem to be basically in the process of dismantling democracy, because if we have real democracy in the coming years, they lose.
ralphy--interesting point!
Ibon wrote:Crazy crazy crazy.
Ibon wrote:Doch, Ich habe Dich nicht falsche eingeschaetzt!
radon1 wrote:tire wrote: But what would have happened if those same mexicans were simply not available?
The economy would enter permanent stagnation/recession/depression. The growth is based on incorporation of lower paid workers. No lower paid workers - no growth.
tire wrote:One man's "best interest" is not another man's best interest.
This is really the basic of the discussion. If we don't agree on this, and you keep on claiming that only YOU know the "best interest" then I'm afraid, there won't be any discussion possible.
tire wrote:
So let's define and agree on this first before we continue.
Do you agree that "the best interest" you claim to know so well is a very personal construct. One man's "best interest" is not another man's best interest.
This is really the basic of the discussion. If we don't agree on this, and you keep on claiming that only YOU know the "best interest" then I'm afraid, there won't be any discussion possible.
Ibon wrote: I brought up the over riding cultural attributes of latinos that are here as immigrants to point out how they are actually predisposed to being more republican than democrat in their beliefs and that the only reason latinos today are predominantly democrat is because the republicans seem to only want a white tent.
People of color not desired.
They ignore demographics to their peril even with all the gerrymandering and all the rest they cannot survive as a majority party relying on aging angry baby boomers. It is just that simple.
50 years of informal immigration with both parties complicit has created the situation we have today where the lives of immigrants and the work they do on farms, factories and as domestic workers is not something you can just unwind by inventing an emergency out of it. It will take time to deal with this with grace and humanity as well as not disrupting the economy as in the case of many farmers.
tire wrote:
The keyword in the sentence is "were". It's the past tense. Meaning when the mexicans IN THE PAST, 50 YEARS AGO, were not available. At a time when they were not yet an integral part of the economy.
So what do you think would have happened?
EnergyUnlimited wrote:Yes, Americanistan is coming. It is a foregone conclusion and american Whites must accept it or be ready (like Cog) to die with gun in hand while defending a glorious past... and loose..
EnergyUnlimited wrote:Other Latinos are socialists and Democrats are their natural allies.
Look on Latin and South America. Everywhere socialist revolutions and populist governments together with assiociated poverty. Mexico is socialist hellhole..
EnergyUnlimited wrote: low IQ retards
Ibon wrote:Latinos are not entitled as a culture. They do not expect anything from their governments.
Ibon wrote: I would even say that most Latinos are more sophisticated than American citizens in that they have become jaded by the false promises of demagogues, whether right or left. Americans are still innocent by comparison to these movements. Latinos see their governments as mainly corrupt and incompetent. The main ideology of most latinos is a desire for economic stability.
Best example at the moment would be Colombia. I traveled there extensively on business in the 90's. Still deep in crisis with leftist FARC, private militias, narco organizations and a government torn apart. Today the country is opening up, relieved to leave this violent chapter behind them, if you go there you will see a collective culture with a feeling of liberation from all these extremes. Well educated society, some of the best universities in Latin America. Still have many problems and security issues in some local areas within the country but all in all much more stable. Tourism is booming. Citizens are not in a funk. They are experiencing a renaissance.
Latinos are not entitled as a culture. They do not expect anything from their governments. So they are much better prepared for the consequences of human overshoot. Americans are deeply steeped in entitlement whether they are political right or left. They still naively believe that government will fix things that can no longer be fixed..... like the BIG SQUEEZE of human ecological overshoot.
This has nothing to do with race by the way. Your comments on race are typical of eastern europeans. We have guests from Russia, Poland, Ukraine this year. It is amazing how almost universal opinion they have of seeing blacks and latinos as inferior. Since I am a host here at our resort I take a neutral position mostly. But your comments did not surprise me as they are pretty typical of folks from your region. Most eastern european countries are racially xenophobic. You have very little history of racial diversity. It is understandable your racism. It is refreshingly unfiltered. I will say that.
Ibon wrote:tire wrote:
So let's define and agree on this first before we continue.
Do you agree that "the best interest" you claim to know so well is a very personal construct. One man's "best interest" is not another man's best interest.
This is really the basic of the discussion. If we don't agree on this, and you keep on claiming that only YOU know the "best interest" then I'm afraid, there won't be any discussion possible.
I give my opinions. Sometimes it might sound preachy, that is possible. When you mentioned this urgency to immediately deport immigrants as part of a guest worker program, that is what I interpreted as your tendency toward being a xenophobe. It seems we are heavily laden with this xenophobia on this site so I may be over reacting some in your case. I brought up the over riding cultural attributes of latinos that are here as immigrants to point out how they are actually predisposed to being more republican than democrat in their beliefs and that the only reason latinos today are predominantly democrat is because the republicans seem to only want a white tent. People of color not desired. They ignore demographics to their peril even with all the gerrymandering and all the rest they cannot survive as a majority party relying on aging angry baby boomers. It is just that simple.
50 years of informal immigration with both parties complicit has created the situation we have today where the lives of immigrants and the work they do on farms, factories and as domestic workers is not something you can just unwind by inventing an emergency out of it. It will take time to deal with this with grace and humanity as well as not disrupting the economy as in the case of many farmers.
Is that nuanced enough?
radon1 wrote:tire wrote:
The keyword in the sentence is "were". It's the past tense. Meaning when the mexicans IN THE PAST, 50 YEARS AGO, were not available. At a time when they were not yet an integral part of the economy.
So what do you think would have happened?
They WERE available 50 years ago, but they were not in demand. Internal resources were sufficient for ensuring the economic growth. Economic development is dynamic.
Had they not been available, we would be living on another planet with a different historical context.
tire wrote:
Let's assume you own a small business (farm, grocery store, gas station, etc.).
Let's also assume you're looking for an unskilled worker who will do good work at minimum pay.
Let's also assume there are no low skilled, uneducated immigrants available (for whatever reason).
What would you do in "the best interest" of your business?
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