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climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 16 Apr 2018, 07:00:24

Yet the problem exists.

I’ve no answer either.

Now what?
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 16 Apr 2018, 07:54:55

Newfie wrote:Yet the problem exists.

I’ve no answer either.

Now what?

Get ready to deal with the consequences I suppose. Start by sorting out what is likely to happen from all the hyperbole and exaggeration.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 16 Apr 2018, 10:13:07

vtsnowedin wrote:
Newfie wrote:Yet the problem exists.

I’ve no answer either.

Now what?

Get ready to deal with the consequences I suppose. Start by sorting out what is likely to happen from all the hyperbole and exaggeration.


Take it a step further. Stop feeling guilty that you are contributing to the problem, live in the moment, eat drink and be merry.

Stop fooling yourself that you can be the change. Get over the guilt already.

Stop the duplicitous hypocrisy of contributing to the problem in your day to day life while you spew the latest earnest proposals to solve the problem which you know you cant.

Set yourself free.

Begin to understand that all those unconscious sheeples out there are actually better adapted than you!
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby asg70 » Mon 16 Apr 2018, 11:48:38

Ibon wrote:Stop the duplicitous hypocrisy of contributing to the problem in your day to day life while you spew the latest earnest proposals to solve the problem


I think Plant with his jetsetting is the proper target of that zinger.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby dissident » Mon 16 Apr 2018, 13:22:03

Ah that old chestnut, you must live the ascetic life to be credible.

F*CK OFF.

Jevon's paradox is a nice way to put this BS in its place. If one person forgoes usage of gasoline and any other CO2 generating activity, then the rest of society will pick up the slack. It is impossible to "fix things" on a one by one basis. It can only be done through organized mass action.

Deniers know this and engage in disruption of any mass action which requires proper government policy to work.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 16 Apr 2018, 15:46:50

asg70 wrote:
Ibon wrote:Stop the duplicitous hypocrisy of contributing to the problem in your day to day life while you spew the latest earnest proposals to solve the problem


I think Plant with his jetsetting is the proper target of that zinger.



You know asg70, we all start making progress when we look in the mirror instead of pointing out others shortcomings.

Like all those eco tourists who cross oceans and countries in order to watch birds here in our cloud forest resort.

All of our shit stinks. Recognizing your own duplicitous hypocrisy is a great place to start.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 16 Apr 2018, 16:10:22

+1
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 17 Apr 2018, 11:17:34

vt wrote: "... six parts per million each year but fortunately about half is reabsorbed by plants and plankton so it will take about thirty years to take the CO2 concentration from 400 to 500 parts per million..."

First, you forgot direct absorption into ocean water (the reason the oceans have already become 30% more acidic/less alkali). Second, we can't depend on these 'sinks' to continue to provide this service forever. There is evidence that the plant/phytoplankton sinks may be turning into net carbon sources, though the ocean waters will likely continue to absorb carbon for as long as we keep increasing CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere (though warmer oceans will do so somewhat less effectively).

On the other point, yes, we obviously need ever elusive global systemic shift away from fossil-death-fuels, but in the mean time, I'm seeing a lot of rationalization for people's personal contribution to the mess. Smart people are also very clever at such self-serving rationalization.

I do agree that: "All of our shit stinks. Recognizing your own duplicitous hypocrisy is a great place to start."
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby vox_mundi » Tue 17 Apr 2018, 11:43:13

We Think We’re The First Advanced Earthlings—But How Do We Really Know?

Image

As a species, we humans tend to take it for granted that we are the only ones that live in sedentary communities, use tools, and alter our landscape to meet our needs. It is also a foregone conclusion that in the history of planet Earth, humans are the only species to develop machinery, automation, electricity, and mass communications – the hallmarks of industrial civilization.

But what if another industrial civilization existed on Earth millions of years ago? Would we be able to find evidence of it within the geological record today? By examining the impact human industrial civilization has had on Earth, a pair of researchers conducted a study that considers how such a civilization could be found and how this could have implications in the search for extra-terrestrial life.

The study, which recently appeared online under the title "The Silurian Hypothesis: Would it be possible to detect an industrial civilization in the geological record", was conducted by Gavin A. Schmidt and Adam Frank – a climatologist with the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies (NASA GISS) and an astronomer from the University of Rochester, respectively.

In what they deem the "Silurian Hypothesis," Frank and Schmidt define a civilization by its energy use.

Human beings are just entering a new geological era that many researchers refer to as the Anthropocene, the period in which human activity strongly influences the climate and environment. In the Anthropocene, fossil fuels have become central to the geological footprint humans will leave behind on Earth. By looking at the Anthropocene's imprint, Schmidt and Frank examine what kinds of clues future scientists might detect to determine that human beings existed. In doing so, they also lay out evidence of what might be left behind if industrial civilizations like ours existed millions of years in the past.

... they compare past extinction level events to determine how they would compare to a hypothetical event where human civilization collapsed. As they state:
... "The clearest class of event with such similarities are the hyperthermals, most notably the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum (56 Ma), but this also includes smaller hyperthermal events, ocean anoxic events in the Cretaceous and Jurassic, and significant (if less well characterized) events of the Paleozoic."

According to the team, the events they did consider (known as "hyperthermals") show similarities to the Anthropocene fingerprint that they identified. In particular, according to research cited by the authors, the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum (PETM) shows signs that could be consistent with anthorpogenic climate change.

Schmidt points to an irony, however:
... if a civilization is able to find a more sustainable way to produce energy without harming its host planet, it will leave behind less evidence that it was there.

- Video

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“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby Cog » Tue 17 Apr 2018, 16:30:01

Is something bad supposed to happen at 500 ppm CO2 that I have not been informed about?
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 17 Apr 2018, 18:00:36

I believe the information has been provided.

But to leave the snide comments aside 500ppm is not a Wall. There are likely tipping points which we do not want to pass. Their exact figure is unknown. Mild be 500 or 550 or could be we have already passed, as some credible sources suspect.

Our grandchildren will have a better idea what we have done.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby phaster » Sat 12 May 2018, 14:31:55

vtsnowedin wrote:
Newfie wrote:Yet the problem exists.

I’ve no answer either.

Now what?

Get ready to deal with the consequences I suppose. Start by sorting out what is likely to happen from all the hyperbole and exaggeration.


about a week and a half ago got into a discussion (on an online forum) about climate change, and one bit of "evidence" present was an alleged quote by a legendary figure who enlightened Al Gore (as to the issue of climate change)

***allegedly*** Revelle in 1992 wrote:"Look before you leap - Drastic, precipitous—and, especially, unilateral—steps to delay the putative greenhouse impacts can cost jobs and prosperity and increase the human costs of global poverty, without being effective. Stringent economic controls now would be economically devastating particularly for developing countries..."


I kinda had to laugh at first because had Revelle as prof., for a small seminar class (basically we just sat around a conference table discussing the issues,... the only thing that would have made the discussion cooler is if there was a pitcher of beer and good pizza)

Anyway back in the day, Revelle did indeed have some reservations about the effects of CO2 on the climate,... BUT he did tell me in passing one thing to watch out for is, various effects of CO2 on different organism w/ in the system

so over the years have been on the look out for various signs,... for example one report of elevated CO2 levels is leading toward a trend of ocean acidification which in turn effects shell fish reproduction

https://www.pmel.noaa.gov/co2/story/Oce ... +shellfish

and since I've taken up an interest in urban farming,... noticed articles like

The great nutrient collapse
The atmosphere is literally changing the food we eat, for the worse. And almost nobody is paying attention.


...Goldenrod, a wildflower many consider a weed, is extremely important to bees. It flowers late in the season, and its pollen provides an important source of protein for bees as they head into the harshness of winter. Since goldenrod is wild and humans haven’t bred it into new strains, it hasn’t changed over time as much as, say, corn or wheat. And the Smithsonian Institution also happens to have hundreds of samples of goldenrod, dating back to 1842, in its massive historical archive—which gave Ziska and his colleagues a chance to figure out how one plant has changed over time.

They found that the protein content of goldenrod pollen has declined by a third since the industrial revolution—and the change closely tracks with the rise in CO2. Scientists have been trying to figure out why bee populations around the world have been in decline, which threatens many crops that rely on bees for pollination. Ziska’s paper suggested that a decline in protein prior to winter could be an additional factor making it hard for bees to survive other stressors.


https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2 ... ide-000511


taken together, all the trends point towards an interesting question

Will Humans Survive the Sixth Great Extinction?

In the last half-billion years, life on Earth has been nearly wiped out five times—by such things as climate change, an intense ice age, volcanoes, and that space rock that smashed into the Gulf of Mexico 65 million years ago, obliterating the dinosaurs and a bunch of other species. These events are known as the Big Five mass extinctions, and all signs suggest we are now on the precipice of a sixth.

Except this time, we have no one but ourselves to blame. According to a study published last week in Science Advances, the current extinction rate could be more than 100 times higher than normal—and that’s only taking into account the kinds of animals we know the most about,...


https://news.nationalgeographic.com/201 ... nce-world/


BTW about the quote attributed to Revelle (1992),... had seen it long ago and wondered about it for many, many, many years THEN came across some info that filled in some back parts of the story,... palace intrigue as they say (w/ lot$ of money on the line),... in other words it fits the idea of a PSYOP that has managed to continue for decades (from 1992 to 2018)

***allegedly*** Revelle in 1992 wrote:"Look before you leap - Drastic, precipitous—and, especially, unilateral—steps to delay the putative greenhouse impacts can cost jobs and prosperity and increase the human costs of global poverty, without being effective. Stringent economic controls now would be economically devastating particularly for developing countries..."

Image

http://www.TinyURL.com/RevelleDoubt
Last edited by phaster on Sat 12 May 2018, 16:01:06, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 12 May 2018, 14:49:43

Indeed. CC is without doubt the most vexing medium to long term problem human will have ever faced. The problem as the PHASTER post and other posts have illustrated is that humanity has come to depend so much on FF. And so in the short term our species is not willing to pay the heavy price to divest away from FF and consequences of CC are not yet compelling enough to force us too.
In fact some sound reasoning can be attributed to using our still potent FF fueled civilization to employ technolgy such as geoengineering to headoff and mitigate the worse of CC. Frankly it is an impossible situation but will ultimately solve itself by humbling humanity
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 16 May 2018, 15:18:16

Without a strong global commitment to address the threat of climate change, the world could become uninhabitable, Dr Goodall warned hours before his death on May 10.


https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/world/2 ... ty-doubts/
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby dohboi » Thu 17 May 2018, 07:03:22

Can Humans Live Well without Pillaging the Planet?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... he-planet/


Many wealthy nations achieve a range of social objectives that together can provide a good life for their people, as outlined by the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals. But to do so, they exceed their share of the earth's natural resources and surpass environmental impact limits needed to safeguard the planet, according to a recent study (top right of main graph). Less wealthy nations use resources more modestly and have lower impacts but meet fewer of the social goals (bottom left of main graph).

The solution: “Wealthy nations can consume less, with no loss in quality of life,” says study leader Daniel W. O'Neill of the University of Leeds in England.

That would free up resources for less wealthy nations to improve lives (circular charts) while still keeping within safe environmental boundaries.
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 17 May 2018, 16:51:14

Very true. They're is do much waste and superfluous spending and consuming in rich countries
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 17 May 2018, 20:49:41

dohboi wrote:Can Humans Live Well without Pillaging the Planet?

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... he-planet/


Many wealthy nations achieve a range of social objectives that together can provide a good life for their people, as outlined by the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals. But to do so, they exceed their share of the earth's natural resources and surpass environmental impact limits needed to safeguard the planet, according to a recent study (top right of main graph). Less wealthy nations use resources more modestly and have lower impacts but meet fewer of the social goals (bottom left of main graph).

The solution: “Wealthy nations can consume less, with no loss in quality of life,” says study leader Daniel W. O'Neill of the University of Leeds in England.

That would free up resources for less wealthy nations to improve lives (circular charts) while still keeping within safe environmental boundaries.


If wealthy countries use less only to see poorer countries use more, then won't be any net reduction in the total global amount of consumption.

What we really need is for wealthy countries to use less AND for poorer countries to use less. Thats the only way we'll get an absolute reduction in global consumption, CO2 emissions, greenhouse warming, pollution, waste, etc.

Cheers!
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 17 May 2018, 21:07:37

Well how about an all around increase in the death rate globally. Here here Let's raise our glasses and toast to less humans on the planet !
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 18 May 2018, 02:36:10

Ibon wrote:Well how about an all around increase in the death rate globally. Here here Let's raise our glasses and toast to less humans on the planet !

Yes, at its core, FF allow so many people to be alive. And people desire an affluent lifestyle. So less people would reduce the burden on the planet by reducing FF use and the propagation and spread of modern industrial civilization. Not to mention the inescapable burden from the mere fact of 7 plus billion living on the planet
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Re: climate change "existential" threat to humanity

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 18 May 2018, 05:37:30

Not a bad place to start:
Georgia Guide Stones

1. Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature.
2. Guide reproduction wisely — improving fitness and diversity.
3. Unite humanity with a living new language.
4. Rule passion — faith — tradition — and all things with tempered reason.
5. Protect people and nations with fair laws and just courts.
6. Let all nations rule internally resolving external disputes in a world court.
7. Avoid petty laws and useless officials.
8. Balance personal rights with social duties.
9. Prize truth — beauty — love — seeking harmony with the infinite.
10. Be not a cancer on the earth — Leave room for nature.
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