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Florida shooting

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Florida shooting

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 15 Feb 2018, 15:56:05

FLORIDA RAMPAGE
https://heavy.com/news/2018/02/nikolas- ... ial-media/
The suspected gunman would also deride Muslims as ‘terrorists and bombers.’” Parodie also told Daily Beast: “I’ve seen him wear a Trump hat.”

No need to politicize these type of incidents more than they have already. The Mass Shooter was simply a deranged individual. Could have been of any political stripe/affiliation
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 15 Feb 2018, 16:57:08

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... 339519002/
The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence said the AR-15, a civilian model of the military’s M-16, also cited the weapon’s versatility in evaluating its popularity.

“They’re accurate and they can basically shoot as quickly as you can pull the trigger,” according to a campaign statement.

"Along those lines, they’re very customizable — most average people can figure out how to install accessories like forward trigger grips that let you hold the gun at waist height and spray bullets while stabilizing the gun, laser sights, and you can add high-capacity magazines.”

In Florida, an AR-15 Is Easier to Buy Than a Handgun


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/15/us/a ... -guns.html
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Cog » Thu 15 Feb 2018, 17:17:22

Are you personally volunteering to be a door kicker and confiscate AR type weapons onlooker or do you want to send someone else to do that for you? I wish to ascertain your commitment to the cause.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Cog » Thu 15 Feb 2018, 17:33:28

onlooker wrote:FLORIDA RAMPAGE
https://heavy.com/news/2018/02/nikolas- ... ial-media/
The suspected gunman would also deride Muslims as ‘terrorists and bombers.’” Parodie also told Daily Beast: “I’ve seen him wear a Trump hat.”

No need to politicize these type of incidents more than they have already. The Mass Shooter was simply a deranged individual. Could have been of any political stripe/affiliation


I have a picture of Cruz wearing an Antifa outfit that is no more valid than him wearing a Trump hat. That MAGA hat was not on his instagram page but created with a different account. But of course you knew that right onlooker?
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby jedrider » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 15:27:10

Semi-automatics are KILLING MACHINES.

No other way around it.

No need to break down doors. Australia did it.

AR-15 capable of 45 rounds per minute in stock form per it's manual.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 15:45:37

jedrider wrote:Semi-automatics are KILLING MACHINES.

No other way around it.

No need to break down doors. Australia did it.

AR-15 capable of 45 rounds per minute in stock form per it's manual.

So all semi-automatics should be banned in the US? Is that what you're saying? Can only police carry a Glock semi-auto pistol for self defense if it has a 10 round or less magazine?

How about my 5 shot S&W revolver I keep in my bedroom (I live alone) for self defense? (I chose a revolver because I wanted maximum reliability. I use anti-personnel shells, as they maximize damage to the bad guys that broke in and minimize the chance a bullet penetrates a wall. I never have the gun loaded except inside the house or at a firing range.) See -- it's possible to think ahead about safety for responsible users. Are you taking my gun too, or is that not a "killing machine"?

Some common sense compromise by both sides would be nice, not that I'd expect to see it.

Should you take my gun if I handle it safely and comply with the laws? I say no. Do people need bump stocks, 50 round magazines, etc? For private non-military use, I also say no.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 15:50:25

jedrider wrote:No need to break down doors. Australia did it.

True or false? If the US issues a decree banning all guns of type "X":

1). all the criminals will promptly turn theirs in.

2). most of the criminals will promptly turn theirs in.

3). all the (formerly) law abiding citizens will turn theirs in.

4). the vast majority of law abiding citizens will turn theirs in.

....

This isn't Australia. Good luck with that plan.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 16:29:57

apparently the killer arrived on site in an Uber. Seems to me that you need to ban all Uber usage in the US. It is obvious that only killers use Uber.

The jump to that rationale isn't far from one banning weapons of any kind.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby jedrider » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 16:40:07

I see the crazies are after me now ;-)

If you can't argue persuasively, then go to the extreme, which is a typical right-wing method of argumentation.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 16:46:22

jedrider wrote:I see the crazies are after me now ;-)

If you can't argue persuasively, then go to the extreme, which is a typical right-wing method of argumentation.

So in your mind, talking about COMPROMISE is "crazy", right off the bat. No bother to rebut. No bother to offer a different compromise, etc.

So don't complain when progress isn't made because the "concerned" folks adopt that attitude. Because we already know the NRA isn't likely to compromise much either.

As it is, I have no idea what your position is, except that, like me, you'd apparently prefer less such massacres. Well, that's nice, but complaining about it without working toward effective compromise has a snowball's chance in hell of meaningful impact in the short to moderate term, IMO.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby jedrider » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 17:05:03

All I stated was that a semi-automatic, such as an AR-15, is somewhat to be considered an "assault rifle". At some point, a LINE must be drawn. That's all. No, I am NOT suggesting we take away toy guns from toddlers (an example of an EXTREME argument, for instance).
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 17:16:08

Outcast, is talking about compromise and I totally agree. But it seems to me that the biggest agreement should revolve around the lethality of Guns. As Jerider said the AR-15 is purely a killing machine. Its use should be used only by law enforcement and military personnel. It has been used in numerous of these random shootings. It is not taking away all the guns just the most lethal. Why that would be controversial beats me.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 17:24:25

onlooker wrote:Outcast, is talking about compromise and I totally agree. But it seems to me that the biggest agreement should revolve around the lethality of Guns. As Jerider said the AR-15 is purely a killing machine. Its use should be used only by law enforcement and military personnel. It has been used in numerous of these random shootings. It is not taking away all the guns just the most lethal. Why that would be controversial beats me.


Onlooker, The FBI is full of Trump haters. You can't trust the police or law enforcement or the military. You cannot restrict lethal arms to only the military or the police because you know they are not trustworthy... in fact they are almost enemies of the state. Ha ha ha
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 17:53:18

This is another mass killer who is UNDER A DOCTOR'S CARE a the time of the shooting, and who is taking PSYCHOACTIVE DRUGS as medicine when he does the shooting.

The drug companies admit that a small percentage of the people who take their psychoactive drugs develop homocidal ideation as a side effect (i.e. the drugs make them want to kill people).

The guy is on drugs and a side effect of the drugs is an impulse to kill people.

Hmmmm.......could it be there is a link between the psychoactive drugs given to psycho-killers that makes them want to kill people and their actions killing people? :idea:
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 18:13:56

jedrider wrote:All I stated was that a semi-automatic, such as an AR-15, is somewhat to be considered an "assault rifle". At some point, a LINE must be drawn. That's all. No, I am NOT suggesting we take away toy guns from toddlers (an example of an EXTREME argument, for instance).

Thank you for the clarification.

Now, the direct quote you made which I responded to was "semi-automatics are killing machines."

If you meant to say semi-automatic assault rifles like the AR-15 are killing machines, why didn't you just say that? THEN, people would at least be clear what you are talking about, and I wouldn't, for example, think of semi-automatic Glock pistols (which are supposed to be VERY reliable, and I have considered purchasing for home defense).

Is that really so "crazy"?

I know that guns tend to be an emotional topic in discussion, but IMO they shouldn't be. Emotions aren't a good source of rational policy-making, IMO.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 18:14:59

Outcast, is talking about compromise and I totally agree. But it seems to me that the biggest agreement should revolve around the lethality of Guns. As Jerider said the AR-15 is purely a killing machine. I


Do you honestly think the same result could not have been achieved with someone skilled using a rather tame looking bolt action Savage or Mossberg .308 with a scope?

Are you suggesting that a trained individual with a small varmint gun such as a .22 long rifle with a scope couldn't have done the exact same damage?

The AR-15 may look scary and invoke thoughts of combat in conflict zones but in reality a bullet from any rifle properly aimed can have the same outcome.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 18:22:54

Rockdoc, I am talking about the ability to kill many people in a short span of time. Of course other factors are at play in determining the final tally of victims which of course involve the skill level of the gunman. But just considering the capability of firing off many rounds rapidly without the need to reload is granting the assailant much more possibility of injuring and killing more people, that is just common sense all other factors being equal.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 18:26:03

Ibon wrote:
onlooker wrote:Outcast, is talking about compromise and I totally agree. But it seems to me that the biggest agreement should revolve around the lethality of Guns. As Jerider said the AR-15 is purely a killing machine. Its use should be used only by law enforcement and military personnel. It has been used in numerous of these random shootings. It is not taking away all the guns just the most lethal. Why that would be controversial beats me.


Onlooker, The FBI is full of Trump haters. You can't trust the police or law enforcement or the military. You cannot restrict lethal arms to only the military or the police because you know they are not trustworthy... in fact they are almost enemies of the state. Ha ha ha

Ibon, I suppose we have more to fear from our representatives/caretakers than our neighbors. However, considering the mental state of my fellow Americans, that may not be a true statement. The grim calculus hopefully can await a few decades longer when I and my loved ones are gone. 8O
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 18:27:32

rockdoc123 wrote:
Outcast, is talking about compromise and I totally agree. But it seems to me that the biggest agreement should revolve around the lethality of Guns. As Jerider said the AR-15 is purely a killing machine. I


Do you honestly think the same result could not have been achieved with someone skilled using a rather tame looking bolt action Savage or Mossberg .308 with a scope?

Are you suggesting that a trained individual with a small varmint gun such as a .22 long rifle with a scope couldn't have done the exact same damage?

The AR-15 may look scary and invoke thoughts of combat in conflict zones but in reality a bullet from any rifle properly aimed can have the same outcome.

Which is why I mentioned both bump stocks and large (i.e. 50 bullet) capacity magazines as an example of equipment that (might) be rational or reasonable to discuss banning or restricting for private use.

Just because an assault rifle looks "scary" in itself isn't the main issue, IMO. What happened, for example, from that hotel in Vegas recently due to the equipment and the arsenal size IS, given the level of carnage possible in a short period of time.

A big game hunter, for example, needs to be able to hit large prey with a big slug and lots of force several times. He doesn't need to hit it with 50 slugs a minute, or anything close to that.

Surely some sort of rational compromise can be reached considering physics, gun mechanics, and needs of users. After all, we manage to do that with many other dangerous things, like licensing for various classes of motor vehicles, to name one.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 19:19:18

If I wanted to slaughter people indiscriminently in a crowd I would not choose an AR-15. I would choose a Winchester 12-guage pump shotgun and load it with 00 buckshot, 3" magnum shells, and saw the choke off so that the pattern expands in a cone. Holding the trigger down, I would stroke the slide and it would fire up to eight shots with nine .38-caliber pellets per stroke (depending upon the exact model), the equivalent of 72 rounds of .38 or 9mm but with even more lethality because of higher velocity. The 12-guage pump IMHO is the deadliest small arm sold, and shotguns can be bought by 18-year-olds in many places where an AR-15 or handgun purchase requires you to be 21 years of age.

If I wanted to kill more people than a small arm of any type, I would use a deadlier weapon than a gun, I would choose a Hummer H1 vehicle which in the civilian model has optionally built in armor proof against .50 caliber (or 12.7mm), run-flat tires, and a supercharged diesel engine and 40" diameter tires. Then I would drive this vehicle through a crowd, such as the concert venue in Las Vegas where the mass shooting occurred last year. I believe the people killed would be up to 3X anything anybody could do with a small arm of any type, in a vehicle that can withstand anything the local SWAT team has available to stop it. The minimum age for a driver's license is 16 years in most states.

If I wanted to kill mass numbers of people, I would turn an LNG tanker ship into one large fuel-air bomb using a couple of tons of high explosives and a precision electronic ignition. The flash and explosive yield would be similar to the Hiroshima bomb. The exact information needed by any person with a background in engineering, mathematics, or the sciences can be found in the open stacks of the civil engineering library at most colleges and universities. I know because I perused such information as an undergraduate, and did not use the knowledge for 40+ years afterwards.

My point would be that a clever person with a technical background could figure out many ways of killing others. I came up with the above thoughts in about a minute. However I am not mentally ill and have no plans to kill anyone.

Gun controls simply do not work, because they are not addressing the problem which is a mentally ill person with a desire to kill others. I have no desire to kill anyone, but I know from my reading that about 10% of the US population - somewhere in the range of 25 to 35 million people, are in fact at one or more times in their life mentally ill and meet the criteria to be listed in the FBI firearms database.

Yet at last count there were somewhere south of 50,000 names in the FBI database for reasons of mental illness (along with millions of criminals), and a significant number of those listed were already deceased. This most recent Florida shooting is yet another case where somebody was under the care of a mental health professional, and was not listed in the FBI database, and therefore could purchase a firearm legally. BTW, WalMart is the #1 source of AR-15's, shotguns, and handguns in the US, and they very definately consult the FBI database before a sale.

Gun controls don't work because we don't use them. Mental health professionals often quote patient confidentiality as the primary reason for not listing their dangerous patients. There is no downside that I know of for this lack of responsibility for such "professionals".
Last edited by KaiserJeep on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 19:33:21, edited 2 times in total.
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