[evilgenius]

I think the world is suffering from inadequate religion.

That's what ISIS thinks as well.

The trouble is how do you wage war on cognitive dissonance? When those you are trying to educate have actually already been told what you are trying to tell them, and they deliberately reject it because the sense of it escapes them, do you keep on trying? Is religion, the spirit and truth of it, something that needs better marketing? There is an insidious character within those who cling to rules. They come with a deeply embedded love for nostalgia that corrupts everything they do. It's like how childhood sets up a person for life. Their particular brand of nostalgia casts everything in its light. All political decisions and victories are examined in that light. The most horrible atrocities can be invisible before it, if they argue against or disprove the nostalgia. In fact, the logic of atrocity can actually seem beneficial. Repentance is about getting at your own nostalgia. Repentance is about confronting the puzzle pieces that make you up. Repentance is about asking if they do actually tell the story you think they do. Repentance is what early Christianity, before it was called Christianity, was based on. Back when those people followed something they called the Way repentance was repentance unto the forgiveness of sin.

[KaiserJeep]

I think the world is suffering from inadequate religion.

That's what ISIS thinks as well.

The trouble is how do you wage war on cognitive dissonance? When those you are trying to educate have actually already been told what you are trying to tell them, and they deliberately reject it because the sense of it escapes them, do you keep on trying? Is religion, the spirit and truth of it, something that needs better marketing? There is an insidious character within those who cling to rules. They come with a deeply embedded love for nostalgia that corrupts everything they do. It's like how childhood sets up a person for life. Their particular brand of nostalgia casts everything in its light. All political decisions and victories are examined in that light. The most horrible atrocities can be invisible before it, if they argue against or disprove the nostalgia. In fact, the logic of atrocity can actually seem beneficial. Repentance is about getting at your own nostalgia. Repentance is about confronting the puzzle pieces that make you up. Repentance is about asking if they do actually tell the story you think they do. Repentance is what early Christianity, before it was called Christianity, was based on. Back when those people followed something they called the Way repentance was repentance unto the forgiveness of sin.

evilg, I'm having problems with what you said. Here in Silly Valley, land of the working Middle Class, and immigrants who also work and aspire to - and most often achieve - Middle Class status, I think we have secular violence, not anything related to religion. It seems to me that horrible crimes are being committed by those who either were never exposed to religion, or who rejected whatever exposure they got in early life.

Deep thoughts about religion are appreciated, and I'll think on what you said, as I frequently indulge in that same vice. However religion or moral education from any other source, seems to be a major element in what we are talking about, but far from the whole story. One of the groups you see in California - in fact the whole West Coast as far N as Alaska, are the Greenies - those who reverence Mother Nature as if she were their deity. In fact some groups do worship Gaia with rituals, they are one extreme. There are 3rd generation "flower people" all over the place here, whose grandparents revolted in the 1960s. They for the most part seem like nice people now, although some who came from such backgrounds also revolted - and now comprise some of the most materialistic corporate stooges in Silly Valley.

There also seems to be that element of tribalism mentioned in this thread before. Over a dozen different Latino gangs (who really knows how many or what differentiates one gang from another) clash with their neighbors just a few miles away from here. Interspersed with these mostly Latino neighborhoods are the rainbow skintone neighborhoods and private golf clubs more typical of Silly Valley. There appears to be a major element of Latino culture at work here, I'm guessing it got imported from S of the border.

[Shaved Monkey]

Isnt the religion responsible here called free market capitalism

[KaiserJeep]

Isnt the religion responsible here called free market capitalism

I don't follow that. YES, many worship the dollar. I have not noticed that such worship contributes to minorities causing street violence. Here in Silly Valley, there are few who would qualify as being below poverty income levels. Yet gang violence is not unknown at higher income levels.

[evilgenius]

I only mention religion as a way to introduce what repentance is, in addition to pointing out a subtle role it plays in the cycle of violence. What I'm talking about is stopping the cycle of coping with life that gets handed down from generation to generation. You know, how we've used that to survive, but it comes with horror stories of various abusive practices that are both publicly accepted and rejected. I don't suppose this is any different than some forms of analysis. It involves getting at what has formed you and both understanding and overcoming it.

Take, for instance, the drive to procreate. All by itself it's not that dangerous. Slap it onto a teenager or person in their early twenties who isn't the least bit prepared to be a parent, and the outcome can be children born of those parents who never learn those things either. Then they have kids. The primary way that a person learns to fit in properly into society is by being loved as a child. When parents don't understand that love is more than a feeling, but involves action to promote and protect, their children learn things about themselves that only repentance can undo. I was talking about how even rich people don't get good mental health coverage. We don't have the money to send this generation into analysis. Any individual can repent. Which is to say they can accept their own faults and step back from asking the world to worship them (in the case of prevalent narcissism). Then they can take an honest look at what made them who they are. Knowing that they can undo some of the things that prevent them form being the people they want to be.

I got onto the Right in America concerning their practice of mauling family planning precisely because it works directly against people breaking this cycle. They think they are justified in this stance. They cite rights issues having to do with the unborn. So do the Catholics when they refuse any birth control at all. To me this is just more unrepentant shouting. How is it that they can enforce their order over a decision and pretend their work is done? If you involve yourself that deeply then you also make a commitment to support. Their form of love is just as much a feeling as those incompetent parent's. They've never taken a good look at themselves.

[Ibon]

Addressing macro issues is no longer relevant to our current dilemma. Focus on what you influence in your core inner circle and abandon engagement on macro issues .....

[Shaved Monkey]

Isnt the religion responsible here called free market capitalism

I don't follow that. YES, many worship the dollar. I have not noticed that such worship contributes to minorities causing street violence. Here in Silly Valley, there are few who would qualify as being below poverty income levels. Yet gang violence is not unknown at higher income levels.

Think of them as just employees trying to keep their job and feed their family or business men trying to maintain or increase their profits/market share,in the best way the free market allows them too.
In this religion everyone is motivated by the bling,greed is good, the sociopath has the greatest advantage,there are no safety nets when you fall.

[Cog]

To desire to better oneself or one's position in life is not greed. Its a motivator that has worked for us humans for thousands of years.

[Subjectivist]

To desire to better oneself or one's position in life is not greed. Its a motivator that has worked for us humans for thousands of years.

I would say that goes back all the way two teenage boys squaring off after school because they both want to impress the same teenage girl. Fighting hurts, and losing a fight can be humiliating, but the thrill of getting a date makes the risk worthwhile. At least when you are 15 lol.

[Shaved Monkey]

To desire to better oneself or one's position in life is not greed. Its a motivator that has worked for us humans for thousands of years.

Its also the reason why we he have PO, global warming, resource wars and an economic system based on a Ponzi scheme.
The idea that living beyond our means, is considered an acceptable BAU practice of normal people, who are just trying to better themselves.

[evilgenius]

There's another element to this, of course, and it works within gangs as much as it does within the rest of society. Extrovert patterning serves to collect people into common sets of ideas and frames of reference. Most people are extroverts. Extroverts rely upon others for their 'energy.' How they do this ranges from something that resembles herding behavior in horses to the advanced techniques of marketing.

Like I said before, gangs are mostly about belonging. Extroverts need to belong to things. They can't think in terms of the ideas that found what they belong to issuing forth from them. Things like that issue forth from the group. What the group is, however, is defined internally, somehow.

People judge. Judgement is why people love reality TV so much. This is where economics comes in. It's difficult to ask a person at a level of life vulnerable to temptation to embrace what society offers when they don't see an economic future in it. If gang behavior makes money, then why wouldn't they engage in it? The judgement is kind of made for them. Notice how almost all of our efforts to dissuade them seem based upon them having some innate desire to stay clean or be a better person. We're luring them with a message that doesn't resonate with them. We are competing against that other judgement.

Also, insidiously, the gang's way of life has become a good portion of what constitutes the norm in many of the communities where gangs are a problem. It's also messaged in popular music and other elements of our culture. It isn't like staying out of gangs is the only message they are getting concerning gangs from society. They are left with the expectation to be the tortoise compared to the gang's hare, but they aren't in a position to understand that the tortoise will be the winner in the end. Let's be honest, our culture doesn't really like being the tortoise. We like being the hare, no matter what community we come from.

The same argument works for pro sports, by the way. Within the general distribution of 12 year olds, attempting to pick an age prior to when things become different, athletic talent is pretty much equally distributed across all people, all races. The thing is, amongst black children of 12 fewer of the talented children see themselves as able to make a living (see a future) as lawyers, doctors, carpenters, or even truck drivers for the county. They therefore, commit themselves to their sport. At each stage of accomplishment there becomes greater and greater separation, through training, coaching, diet, etc, until when you look at most pro sports teams they are predominately made up of black people.

[KaiserJeep]

Cursed be what little I know of Anthropology, but what I think is at work in gangs is those same primate instincts that we evolved into over a million years. The urge to acquire more and better food, more females, and a better cave or tree nest or whatever are rooted in our plains ape ancestry. Likewise the desire to be surrounded with extended family is an ape instinct.

The only difference between humans and a troop of baboons is that we think about what we are doing, even - as with this thread - itemize what is wrong with such behavior, before we get back to satisfying those primate urges again.

Mother Nature made us this way, and we are doing what comes natural. What could possibly go wrong??