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Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 24 Oct 2016, 18:43:28

Tanda,
Recently I read this book recommended here by someone (MBS?) Tropic of Chaos. I keep suggesting it to folks as I think it explained a lot.

That book talks about how the World Bank and other institutions tend to screw up 3rd world countries. It kinda goes like this.

A country tries to get ther stuff together and over spends on social supports. But the country is stable.
It defaults on loans.
Funding groups force economic austerity measures and reforms including the dropping of import tariffs and encourage the industrialization of the farms and capital influx.
Subsequently farmers loose their land, small business go under. Many folks move to the city in search of jobs and a living wage.
The cities concentrate the jobless and poor.
Lacking government social supports (austerity) local ad hoc groups form to provide services.
Drugs and crime increase, criminal social support groups form. They take over the humanitarian groups.
The criminal groups grow and become armed and start competing with the government and one another for control.
Civil war breaks out.

While I don't agree with everything he write he does draw a pretty consistent and logical picture.

He does not apply this to the USA, I do see parallels

I think that answers a lot of your questions. We have put our folks out of work, run them into the ghetto, and are now trying to keep a lid on an impending civil war. I don't think there is anyone in government t who is particular ally aware of this, they all have key hole view points. It's just me making sense out of what I see.
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Re: Truth about IPCC model global warming projections

Unread postby ralfy » Mon 24 Oct 2016, 21:35:58

pstarr wrote:
Ibon wrote:
KaiserJeep wrote: I would prefer to marinate in the angst of fossil fuel depletion, particularly petroleum depletion, which I view as a real and imminent form of Doom. This is the central theme of PO.com, which most of you ignore in favor of off-topic AGW/CC angst and Doom hysteria, which I believe is overblown reaction to natural changes in surface temperatures, caused by a complex relationship between such temperatures and the solar radiation which varies over centuries due to reasons of orbital mechanics, called Milankovitch cycles.


You seem to enjoy marinating in the AGW/CC debate actually. AGW is not off topic to peak oil because
AGW has always been a consequence of human overshoot enabled by the over consumption of fossil fuels.

Here we have an inkling of the truth. The AGW/CC Doomer Fanclub is organized around that mission statement, to put an end to the "over consumption of fossil fuels." Here's a clue: we have little choice, we consume what we need to live. All that driving around, however frantic and unfortunate, was baked into the suburban model 100 years ago. There is no getting out of it. Too late to implement local light rail, intercity electric passenger trains and long-haul electric freight. We can't even fix our rotting water and sewer systems.

So you fanboys and fangirls can just relax and stop trying to prove to everyone that we have a choice. Or that our choice matters. Or that the results matter. You and it doesn't matter. There is no avoiding dieoff. Which incidentally will have little or nothing to do with AGW.


The catch is peak oil, which has will likely not allow for over-consumption. Thus, being complacent regarding AGW is illogical, as we may be looking at several crises amplifying each other. For example, higher sea levels and more abnormal weather may lead to combinations of storm surges, floods, and drought, all of which amplify problems concerning food shortages or more expensive food, more oil needed for relief operations, etc.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Revi » Tue 25 Oct 2016, 08:28:18

Neither presidential candidate really knows what's going on. People know what's popular to know. Peak Oil is not popular any more, so it's died as popular knowledge. I think they will get a briefing by some people who are in the know as soon as they get in there, since maybe the military knows a bit about it, but they won't trouble themselves about the problem. Who ever wins this race gets the booby prize. They will be unable to get the promised "growth" going again, and they won't be able to explain why. It's going to be interesting.

Meanwhile back to rural vs. urban. I think it matters if you are rich. If you're rich a city is a great place to be. If you are poor, I think it's better to be poor in the country since at least you can eat, if you are willing to grow, hunt and forage some stuff. Most people would rather starve in the city, so that takes the pressure off of most rural areas.

Right now it's tough in most rural areas. There is no price for wood here in Maine for example. We used to have a thriving wood products industry, but it's dead or dying fast right now.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 25 Oct 2016, 09:27:00

Revi,
FWIW, there is also a psychological component. It doesn't effect all but for some us living in the city, even in the nicest parts, is distressing, depressing. I don't know what the differentiator is but its real, for at least some of us. I was just miserable.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby GHung » Tue 25 Oct 2016, 10:57:19

Newfie wrote:Revi,
FWIW, there is also a psychological component. It doesn't effect all but for some us living in the city, even in the nicest parts, is distressing, depressing. I don't know what the differentiator is but its real, for at least some of us. I was just miserable.


The "psychological component" is paramount, IMO. Having lived in urban, suburban and rural settings, I can attest to that. Our city friends come to visit, comment on the quiet beauty, then often proceed to speed-talk, complain about poor 3G/4G connections, make phone calls, and look for "something to do". They are clearly used to being over-stimulated. I find myself being far less reactionary and more contemplative, living in the forest, but not detached from what is happening in the real world. When out and about, it's very easy to spot folks who "ain't from around here" just by how they drive (always up each other's asses and impatient).

Financially, we spend much less, in part because of mind-set, and because there are fewer demands on our pocketbook and fewer triggers to spend money. Costs for goods and energy are comparable, and even though destinations are farther apart, we drive less, and since there are no traffic jambs, we spend less time sitting in the car going nowhere while burning hydrocarbons. Our county has two traffic lights. Property taxes are much lower, and most folks pay on time to stay off of the 'delinquent tax' list published in the local paper every March. It's mainly developers and non-resident property owners who are delinquent. Action against locals and long-time residents who have genuine trouble paying their property taxes are very rare, especially on homesteads and farm land.
We couldn't live our frugal off-grid lifestyle in the city or suburbs; probably lots of ordinances against that sort of thing.

We know our neighbors and get along even if we disagree on some things. We also know our local politicians and law enforcement; most of them anyway, and feel our vote counts for more, locally. Government services are far more accessible; I've never waited in line to see the people in the tax office; renewing drivers licenses is quick and easy, and I never have to stand in line to vote. Before the Supreme Court axed North Carolina's voter ID law, the pole workers didn't even ask for my ID because they've all known me for years. I sometimes write to the opinion section of the local paper, it always gets published, and I often get phone calls from folks who appreciate what I say. People who don't agree with me will generally say so in next week's paper.

Crime is low. They publish an "arrest report" every week and there are usually only 4-6 arrests reported, some weeks none. The entire county is like a big 'neiborhood watch', though folks mind their own business for the most part. Violent crime like murder is rare, though domestic violence is more common than most would like, and absolutely not tolerated.

I'm not sure if it's a downside, but trips to the city are increasingly stressful, and after we make our visits, I find myself scurrying back to the shelter of our mountains and a more tolerable society. It's not perfect, but our lifestyle is certainly deeply improved. Some folks simply can't adapt to rural life which is fine with me since they often come here and try to change things, generally without much success. They are better off living the lives they know, somewhere else. Meanwhile, I'm confident that we live in a place that will come together, whatever the future holds, to either solve problems locally, or adapt to the new realities. Maybe it's just me, but I think most cities and their suburbs will be toast.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 25 Oct 2016, 11:11:37

GHung wrote:Our city friends come to visit, comment on the quiet beauty, then often proceed to speed-talk, complain about poor 3G/4G connections, make phone calls, and look for "something to do". They are clearly used to being over-stimulated.


I enjoyed your whole post but especially this part. We have some guests here that fit this description perfectly. Some folks have nervous systems that are permanently on and no longer know how to disconnect and chill. Most folks though who arrive amped up do find a baseline by the end of their stay though. The wilderness elixer does work on most people.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby GHung » Tue 25 Oct 2016, 12:06:37

Ibon wrote:
GHung wrote:Our city friends come to visit, comment on the quiet beauty, then often proceed to speed-talk, complain about poor 3G/4G connections, make phone calls, and look for "something to do". They are clearly used to being over-stimulated.


I enjoyed your whole post but especially this part. We have some guests here that fit this description perfectly. Some folks have nervous systems that are permanently on and no longer know how to disconnect and chill. Most folks though who arrive amped up do find a baseline by the end of their stay though. The wilderness elixer does work on most people.


Thanks, Ibon. I would posit that the majority of your guests are making a conscious effort to 'disconnect and chill', and are going to a lot of expense to do so. How long is the average stay there? We get weekend visitors who really don't have the time to make any transition that matters, though at least some try.
I think many urban/suburban creatures feel trapped and are prone to accept that. Like consumption, the intense urban lifestyle may be a sort of addiction; habit at least; normalcy. It's what they're adapted to, which is understandable. I used to make a weekly expedited freight delivery from Atlanta to The Bronx, and the 40ish guy accepting my delivery had been out of the city only once; made a group trip to the Catskills. Said he was terrified by nature. Strange, that.

In my case, those city habits were never fully-formed in the first place. Never liked crowds much. They never seem to be able to stay out of each other's way. We sometimes see stories about people getting killed in human stampedes at religious or sporting events. I find that absurd, to say the least. WTF is wrong with those people?

Question: Are urban/suburban dwellers more sociopathic?
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 25 Oct 2016, 15:15:49

So now T has to split these last few posts again into their own seperate thread--Thread Splitting Thread??!! :lol: :lol: :P :P
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Revi » Tue 25 Oct 2016, 21:04:20

About 20 years ago my wife's nephew came and visited us on an island where we go in the summer. He kept asking us again and again what are we doing next, what are we doing now. I finally told him that we were just paddling around in a canoe in the fog, and that is what the activity is right now, so get into it. He understood I think, and now his favorite thing is to do this kind of thing. He was so used to being constantly scheduled and stimulated that he didn't really know how to just chill and experience the place.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 26 Oct 2016, 07:20:05

GHung wrote:How long is the average stay there?


3 days. Sometimes folks will book for a week. Biologists often stay longer.

Question: Are urban/suburban dwellers more sociopathic?


The examples Revi and you gave, what I see here with some of our guests, these amped up nervous systems that no longer know silence and how to sink into it and be still. The evolution of a certain type of eco tourism that has moved away from walks in the woods and moved toward the adrenalization of outdoor activities like ziplining through the forest, where you can take selfies of yourself zipping along and at the bottom you can already be uploading images on Facebook to your friends. That is sadly how "eco tourism" is increasingly being marketed. What this is all about is offering activities that match the amped up nervous systems of urban and suburban lifestyles.

It is interesting to think about this and how we have created a modern society with a high level of agitation, nervous systems demanding constant stimuli, and a total unfamiliarity to deeper and more intimate spaces. Cyber space and everyone going around with mobile devices where you see this constant switched on desperate need of contact but void of content. Go to Starbucks in any urban area and you have up to 90% of customers relating to either their mobile devices or labtops.

Sociopathology is not so much individuals suffering this I think as it is a collective disease.

Switched on and amped up nervous systems represents a way to be constantly distracted. A way to avoid being more intimate and honest with each other and your planet. I actually really believe this distraction, this avoidance, is the fear underneath that we are destroying ourselves. People know in their subconscious that the pathway we are on is suicidal and the coping mechanism is constant distraction and keeping the nervous system amped. Or caving into addictions like durgs or obesity. Actually, rural areas seem to suffer more the addictive escapism of drugs and obesity where urban areas tend towards jacked up nervous systems. That's my impression, I don't know if statistically that is accurate.

We really do have a socio pathological collective.

I am observing this and how it has worsened through the past couple of decades. I don't really completely understand how this all happened. How we allowed ourselves to be collectively duped.

To just say it is a cabal of elites manipulating us is too simple an explanation.

What is really going on here I ask myself?
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 26 Oct 2016, 09:45:13

I see the trend toward Mindfullness to be related. Folks know they are missing something and trying to come up with an urban solution.

A Marriage Counsellor suggested Mindfullness to us. Is said, yeah sure, I do that. Ever sit in on a deer stand for a few hours?

She didn't know what to say to that.

But the point is you should lead your life to get the things you need. No exercise bike, walk to the store. No meditation, find some quiet spot. It will happen.

Here's an honest question. Was any great book ever written by a person who did not know how to set aside time for thoughtful reflection?
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 26 Oct 2016, 13:12:07

Newfie wrote:Here's an honest question. Was any great book ever written by a person who did not know how to set aside time for thoughtful reflection?


No and this applies to composers of music and artists as well....... standing for hours in a tree stand or the endorphin high that long distance runners get, fishing and staring at a bobber....... sitting silently by a forest stream and being still enough that mosquitoes buzz around your head, and then a dragonfly comes up and starts to zip around you picking off the mosquitoes ..... human, mosquito, dragonfly, suddenly a trio interwoven and you are there sentient and still...a timelessness happens. Yes, this is mindfulness, and it is available anytime you want it. When you are in that space the veil drops, the agitation drops, and strangely enough that division of man and nature dissolves. Then the secrets of the forest emerge. Our HG ancestors hung in this space hours at a time. Their mythology often stated that mother nature gave them the deer they hunted. In other words, when in that still space it was not so much the pursuit of the deer as it is being there mindful when the deer presented itself.

Agitated and amped you perceive only the surface, the deeper more intimate is lost. I always liked that analogy of vertical time. Linear time is the passing of hours. Vertical time is the depth to which you live those passing hours.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 26 Oct 2016, 17:10:20

I remember reading that Eskimos would stand by a seal blow hole poised in a position to strike when the seal arrived. Sometimes for 2 days.

Now THATS awesome.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 26 Oct 2016, 21:48:50

Newfie wrote:I remember reading that Eskimos would stand by a seal blow hole poised in a position to strike when the seal arrived. Sometimes for 2 days.

Now THATS awesome.
Sadly Newfie we are not supposed to call them Eskimos today. Apparently the Inuit are or were called that by the native Americans living to the south of them and it means "eaters of raw meat" and is the equivalent of calling a colored person the "N" word.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 27 Oct 2016, 08:36:00

You are not supposed to refer to a man (is "man" still allowed?) in his golden years as "old." Ageism! :roll:
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 27 Oct 2016, 12:05:59

Newfie wrote:You are not supposed to refer to a man (is "man" still allowed?) in his golden years as "old." Ageism! :roll:

As a fellow well seasoned citizen it was just the kettle jesting with the pot.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 27 Oct 2016, 12:10:51

I know, I was just rattling in unison.
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby Revi » Mon 31 Oct 2016, 07:36:25

I plan on spending my "golden years" out on an island, which is pretty rural. I plan on growing a big garden, boiling maple syrup in the spring and teaching part time. That's the plan. Now let's see if it works out. It's good to have a plan, but I know enough to know that they don't always work out. We'll see...
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Re: Rural vs Urban Costs & Benefits

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Mon 31 Oct 2016, 14:14:30

Revi - "I plan on spending my "golden years" out on an island, which is pretty rural.". Speaking of which I wonder if anyone pointed out the one really great benefit to urban life...a f*cking paycheck! LOL. I don't think I've noticed this thread before. But who cares how much cheaper rural life might be if you can't pay for it? Easy for OLD FARTS (my prefered term) like me and you in retirement. But a 35 yo with 3 kids? Just a guess but I would say 95% of the urban people I know lack the skills employed in a rural environment. I also know a fair number of rurals that lack those skills. And if all of that 5% urban's packed up and went rural there would be 40 or 50 applying for that one job.

Just more folks waiting for their plane to Fantasy Island. LOL.
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