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Alternatives to Capitalism

For discussions of events and conditions not necessarily related to Peak Oil.

Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 27 Jul 2015, 18:04:44

evilgenius wrote: freewill is probably best understood when a person says 'no' borne out of a sense of personal understanding of what is ethical. To form a personal ethics and act according to it is free will.


And how an individual integrates in his natural environment and within his community. There can really be no free will alone on an island.
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Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 27 Jul 2015, 18:13:06

Ibon wrote:
evilgenius wrote: freewill is probably best understood when a person says 'no' borne out of a sense of personal understanding of what is ethical. To form a personal ethics and act according to it is free will.


And how an individual integrates in his natural environment and within his community. There can really be no free will alone on an island.

Which is a way of saying that we should respect the free will of others.
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Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

Unread postby evilgenius » Tue 28 Jul 2015, 02:22:52

onlooker wrote:
Ibon wrote:
evilgenius wrote: freewill is probably best understood when a person says 'no' borne out of a sense of personal understanding of what is ethical. To form a personal ethics and act according to it is free will.


And how an individual integrates in his natural environment and within his community. There can really be no free will alone on an island.

Which is a way of saying that we should respect the free will of others.


Which is to say that no ethics can exist without love. Love, after all, isn't directed at the self. This works for all of you people who cannot seem to understand how ethics can exist all by itself, within an individual. Interestingly, it also works for those who live on islands.The self, as in the self of adoration or the seeker of distinction, is the enemy in both worlds. In the one it causes a discord for which it casts victory as the only means to solve it, and in the other it works against memory, bending and shaping it not according to truth but according to how it chooses to see history in light of itself.
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Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

Unread postby onlooker » Tue 28 Jul 2015, 03:51:55

That is really a nice philosophy evil. I for one share any philosophy that revolves around LOVE.
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Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Tue 28 Jul 2015, 06:14:31

Only an infant is ever truly alone in nature. Ibon used the island metaphor, but is aware as anyone that there are ethics involved in dealing with nature, even on an island, 'alone'.
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Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

Unread postby evilgenius » Tue 28 Jul 2015, 11:19:06

SeaGypsy wrote:Only an infant is ever truly alone in nature. Ibon used the island metaphor, but is aware as anyone that there are ethics involved in dealing with nature, even on an island, 'alone'.


You keep pushing that point, but I think you are overlooking something. I'm not trying to assert something that probably ought to be considered middle path until it reaches one or the other extreme. I'm simply acknowledging that there are different types of people in the world. There are introverts and extroverts. There is autism, which presents itself across a spectrum. There are things, which in the discoveries likely to be made concerning how the human brain works and the nature of consciousness, that may be as yet unknown to us, but also place people into particular orientations in relation to themselves and their fellow man/nature. Never mind that absolutely everything you see taking place in your life, whoever is reading this, is now and ever will be consciously taking place solely inside your head. If you reflect upon that it forces you to wonder what the true nature of reality is. This might sound quite individualistic, but I think it is really big raft.

It is probably true that this way of thinking does hold an individual responsible, even within the context of a group. Mostly, responsible to themselves, the self they would be if they could escape delusion. But, yeah, also to the group. I think this kind of thing is actually a valid and interesting topic. And it is pertinent to this post-capitalism discussion because we see the forms of it at work in our societies today. The UK and the US, for instance, have a vastly different take when it comes to the role of the individual vs. society. Those differences may mostly work themselves out in the local politics, serving as a basis for the short-hand part of language that drives that kind of thing, but they do rise up sometimes, like probably right now, when we try to communicate across cultures.
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Re: Alternatives to Capitalism

Unread postby evilgenius » Wed 29 Jul 2015, 12:27:07

And now it's probably time to talk about the place of private property under post-capitalism. This has already been started upon, but left unfinished. The Soviet idealists believed what Marx said, that there wasn't any room for private property. They did an interesting thing. They collectivized farming, and it didn't work. Following Marx you would have figured that it would have been as simple as using the principles, such as division of labor and organizational scale, discovered by the industrial revolution. But imagine what it was like for your average peasant farmer, who watched what was going on(should he/she have been lucky enough to live long enough to get into a collectivized situation) and held their tongue concerning their knowledge of how to do things better. They knew that if they opened it they would likely get shot. The way that was going to be enforced upon them was the way that was handed to them, with no input from their corner. As it was, eventually, the plots in the yards of most collectivized peasant's living quarters were more productive per acre than any of the land they were forced to work.

Today there is a kind of impact upon private property which effects people as well. It is connected to land, but is not a dispossessing force per se. The thing that effects people the most, that reaches them in terms of the relationship between their property and the state is interest rates. Without even realizing it capitalism has already evolved to exact a relationship that deals with private property. Marx was right, for communism to develop capitalism would have to evolve into it.

The problem with this(never mind the usury), of course, is that the way it has been implemented it works only one way, from the top down, just like under collectivization. It works until you hit zero, and then it starts to try to take from savers rather than benefit the borrower. It's done this way because in order to incentivize spending, and therefore help create an environment wherein entrepreneurs are willing to borrow(thus increasing the money supply), it seems necessary to dis-incentivize people from saving. What better way to do that than negative interest rates upon savings accounts. It's not as bad as it sounds, assuming there is actual deflation, if the rate of negative interest is not as great as the rate that the money supply is shrinking.

I would argue, however, that there is a better way. Long before negative savings rates ought to be considered in a contraction, I think the state should move in on the side of borrowers. By lowering borrower's payment amounts in line with negative interest rate targets they would do the same thing as what they expect an attack upon the notion of savings to do, increase spending within the economy within which entrepreneurs are active. Further, if nothing is actually done to the real periodic payment to the lender, if borrowers pay less because the state is making up the difference between the coupon amount of the loan and the negative interest amount, then the theoretical size of the money supply captured in an accounting sense remains as it was. And while this is in effect it can be determined where there was actual destructive usury, such that the coupon amount of those loans can be lowered. This way, in a time of serious doubt as to the economic foundation for taking chances, entrepreneurs, and some home buyers, would actually be incentivized to borrow due to the opportunity cost of not doing so.

So, you see, the bank bailouts were truly capitalist in nature. Instead of taking that money and spearheading an action that would have sought justice in terms of the rate structure the state propped up the capitalists. Why not, though. That was what they perceived as the thing to do. They could only see the one way relationship that interest rates had with private property.

What is justice? In strictest terms it is about making an injured party whole. You can use the metaphor of the traffic accident to understand it. Whether the accident happened within a roundabout, the UK way of readily adjusted interest rates on most loans, or a signalized intersection, the US way of mostly fixed rate loans, justice demands that the accident be cleared and traffic restored. In the sense that we are talking about justice for a whole society we are talking about it being about restoring traffic. But another aspect of justice is to see when the structure of something necessarily leads to crashes. When that is the case then a junction must be redesigned.
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