onlooker wrote:I think the big wild card here is Global Warming. Even here on this site Cid Yama plus others like Guy Mcpherson are predicting truly calamitous events in a quite short time. Guy about 2030 and Cid I believe states 2020. Arctic Methane Emergency Group also sees disaster as imminent when Arctic is ice-free. So I do not discount this scenario as occurring faster then we may presume.
This is why I think economic concerns are secondary. It's not that they're inconsequential, but moving to a no-debt economy or some perfected form of communism will not stop people from having kids above replacement, for instance. It won't stop us from destroying the soil with mechanized agriculture, etc...
This is why I think economic concerns are secondary. It's not that they're inconsequential, but moving to a no-debt economy or some perfected form of communism will not stop people from having kids above replacement, for instance. It won't stop us from destroying the soil with mechanized agriculture, etc...
davep wrote:onlooker wrote:I would add that this current type of economic system is inherent in the very nature of capitalism which is a profit-greed derived system. We should have at some point world-wide adopted some sort of socialist-command economy type system whereby production would have been controlled and channeled mostly to the needs of people rather then wants. Alas, greed got the better of us. I would agree that this economic growth model is at the root of our trashing of the planet. I also feel it is getting very late to forestall collapse and in the end money is but paper and resources and the health of Earth or lack of is ultimately the arbiter of satisfying needs and wants not any man-made economic system as we will soon find out.
I would disagree. The current economic system is the brainchild of bankers. They befuddled politicians to get the likes of the Federal Reserve Act passed. Capitalism can survive perfectly well without an economic system that uses banks to create money as debt.
I'm not necessarily a fan of capitalism, but we need to be clear what the root of the need for growth is.
ennui2 wrote:Yeast in the petri dish don't know what money is. They still grow beyond their food supply and die off.
davep wrote:I'm not suggesting the current monetary system is the root of all ecological degradation, just that if we don't address it we have no chance of addressing the ecological degradation in isolation.
ennui2 wrote:I don't discount the possibility of an apocalyptic methane-release. But if it seems like the future is already predetermined and there's little leeway for any of us to do much at an individual or collective level now, in the above scenario, there's REALLY no point wringing your hands over it. And so I'm excluding that from the model. Same deal with a WWIII nuclear exchange.
GregT wrote:ennui2 wrote:Yeast in the petri dish don't know what money is. They still grow beyond their food supply and die off.
Herein lies the big question. Are we smarter than yeast, or are we not?
Do we keep consuming the energy source that has allowed exponential economic growth, ultimately leading to the complete die off of our species? Or do we stop now, and face the consequences? There is no comfortable outcome. We face a predicament, die off, or extinction.
onlooker wrote:Yes but with a crucial difference I do not think that the Queen Bee does things that will endanger entire hive and all the bees. Then again I do not know much about Queen Bee.
Newfie wrote:GregT wrote:ennui2 wrote:Yeast in the petri dish don't know what money is. They still grow beyond their food supply and die off.
Herein lies the big question. Are we smarter than yeast, or are we not?
Do we keep consuming the energy source that has allowed exponential economic growth, ultimately leading to the complete die off of our species? Or do we stop now, and face the consequences? There is no comfortable outcome. We face a predicament, die off, or extinction.
It would seem the answer is before us, collectively we obey the same rules as yeast.
Ibon wrote:You know how modern humans often put their old folks in homes. We do not venerate the old which is the flip side of consuming our grandchildren's resources.
We are not only split off from natural ecosystems in the artificial environments we live in. We are equally split off from the continuity of family and thus we feel no sense of obligation to our grand children.
Ibon wrote:You know how modern humans often put their old folks in homes. We do not venerate the old which is the flip side of consuming our grandchildren's resources.
We are not only split off from natural ecosystems in the artificial environments we live in. We are equally split off from the continuity of family and thus we feel no sense of obligation to our grand children.
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
Return to Peak oil studies, reports & models
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 44 guests