SeaGypsy wrote:KJ, how can a self professed computer engineer state that 'with digital record keeping nothing is ever lost'?!? Do you know anything about permanent archiving & its dependence on energy? The fragility of solid state digital devices?
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
onlooker wrote:Why Civilization cannot and will not resume:
I am posting this topic as we have already discussed greatly the drivers of a die-off and the likelihood of this occurring. I am curious as to what others see arising in it’s wake. I for one do not believe anything like the civilization we have can be preserved. First of all fossil fuels will be mostly exhausted, we need an abundant energy source to maintain this advanced civilization. Second the aftermath will be too tumultuous to retain any semblance of BAU, thirdly if war(s) break out too much devastation. But above all I think because the humans who make it through the bottleneck let’s say for arguments sake one billion will forsake civilization for something more akin to a Permaculture more simplified social organization as opposed to more advanced organization. So all signs point to our present civilization pretty much disappearing and surviving humans banding together hopefully retaining some technical and general wisdom and know how as they will certainly need it. It would be a complex transition with a wide range of possible best to worse case scenarios however, I am pessimistic because of the sorry state of the planet. Perhaps these remaining humans can come to settle an area relatively hospitable in terms of it’s food and water and be relatively uncontaminated. One caveat, nuclear waste disposal poses an especially dire and difficult challenge as of course our changing climate.
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
Newfie is one of our regual ghouls who hang around threads like the Ebola one hoping to enjoy the site of lots of death. Unfortunately him and his evil (Dohboi, MBS etc) friends have had to move onto new issues to fantasize about "die offs".Newfie wrote:After the die off......
GHung wrote:Onlooker: "Thanks Tanada for that pointer about radiation, i was under the impression that leakage was a big problem. "
Yeah, well, Tanada skipped the part about if that fuel isn't kept cool for several decades it'll burn and go airborn. If the cooling pools aren't maintained and constantly cooled/replenished it is a big problem. Ask the folks at Fukushima. Suggesting that these energy sources and their extremely long-lived by-products can just be turned off or walked away from in the case of collapse, or that societies will be able to afford to maintain the ~12,000 tonnes of high-level waste currently created each year, following a severe protracted economic decline, is nothing more than sociopathic handwaving and denial.
Of course, most expect that folks will simply move away from the danger zones (millions/billions of them?), the same way we assume billions of people will move away from current coastlines as sea levels rise. Not sure why someone would try to minimise that.
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
"HLW accounts for over 95 percent of the total radioactivity produced in the process of nuclear electricity generation. The amount of HLW worldwide is currently increasing by about 12,000 metric tons every year..."
All U.S. nuclear power plants store spent nuclear fuel in “spent fuel pools.” These pools are robust constructions made of reinforced concrete several feet thick, with steel liners. The water is typically about 40 feet deep, and serves both to shield the radiation and cool the rods.
As the pools near capacity, utilities move some of the older spent fuel into “dry cask” storage. Fuel is typically cooled at least 5 years in the pool before transfer to cask. NRC has authorized transfer as early as 3 years; the industry norm is about 10 years.
The NRC believes spent fuel pools and dry casks both provide adequate protection of the public health and safety and the environment. Therefore there is no pressing safety or security reason to mandate earlier transfer of fuel from pool to cask.
After the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, the NRC issued orders to plant operators requiring several measures aimed at mitigating the effects of a large fire, explosion, or accident that damages a spent fuel pool. These were meant to deal with the aftermath of a terrorist attack or plane crash; however, they would also be effective in responding to natural phenomena such as tornadoes, earthquakes or tsunami. These mitigating measures include:
Controlling the configuration of fuel assemblies in the pool to enhance the ability to keep the fuel cool and recover from damage to the pool.
Establishing emergency spent fuel cooling capability.
Staging emergency response equipment nearby so it can be deployed quickly
According to the Congressional Research Service (using NEI data), there were 62,683 metric tons of commercial spent fuel accumulated in the United States as of the end of 2009.
Of that total, 48,818 metric tons – or about 78 percent – were in pools.
13,856 metric tons – or about 22 percent – were stored in dry casks.
The total increases by 2,000 to 2,400 tons annually.
http://www.nrc.gov/waste/spent-fuel-storage/faqs.html
'How long is spent fuel allowed to be stored in a pool or cask?"
NRC regulations do not specify a maximum time for storing spent fuel in pool or cask. The agency’s “waste confidence decision” expresses the Commission’s confidence that the fuel can be stored safely in either pool or cask for at least 60 years beyond the licensed life of any reactor without significant environmental effects. At current licensing terms (40 years of initial reactor operation plus 20 of extended operation), that would amount to at least 120 years of safe storage.
However, it is important to note that this does not mean NRC “allows” or “permits” storage for that period. Dry casks are licensed or certified for 20 years, with possible renewals of up to 40 years. This shorter licensing term means the casks are reviewed and inspected, and the NRC ensures the licensee has an adequate aging management program to maintain the facility.
The most recent waste confidence findings say that fuel can be stored safely for 60 years beyond the reactor's licensed life. Does this mean fuel will be unsafe starting in 2059 [60 years after Dresden 1's original license ended]? What if the spent fuel pool runs out of room even before the end of a reactor license? What is the NRC going to do about this?
The NRC staff is currently developing an extended storage and transportation (EST) regulatory program. One aspect of this program is a safety and environmental analysis to support long-term (up to 300 years) storage and handling of spent fuel, as well as associated updates to the “waste confidence” rulemaking. This analysis will include an Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) on the environmental impacts of extended storage of fuel. The 300-year timeframe is appropriate for characterizing and predicting aging effects and aging management issues for EST. The staff plans to consider a variety of cask technologies, storage scenarios, handling activities, site characteristics, and aging phenomena—a complex assessment that relies on multiple supporting technical analyses. Any revisions to the waste confidence rulemaking, however, would not be an “approval” for waste to be stored longer than before—we do that through the licensing and certification of ISFSIs and casks. More information on the staff’s plan can be found in SECY-11-0029.
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