[Sixstrings]

U.S. and China square off at Asia security forum

Using unusually strong language, U.S. Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel took aim at Beijing's handling of territorial disputes with its Asian neighbors.

"In recent months, China has undertaken destabilizing, unilateral actions asserting its claims in the South China Sea," Hagel said.

He warned Beijing that the United States was committed to its geopolitical rebalance to the Asia-Pacific region and "will not look the other way when fundamental principles of the international order are being challenged".

Hagel said the United States took no position on the merits of rival territorial claims in the region, but added: "We firmly oppose any nation's use of intimidation, coercion, or the threat of force to assert these claims."

His speech at Singapore's Shangri-La Dialogue, Asia biggest security forum, provoked an angry reaction from the deputy chief of staff of the Chinese Army, Lieutenant-General Wang Guanzhong.

"I felt that Secretary Hagel's speech is full of hegemonism, threat and intimidation," he told reporters just after the speech.

Wang said the speech was aimed at causing trouble in the Asia-Pacific.

Hagel's comments followed the keynote address by Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe at the same forum on Friday evening, who pledged "utmost support" to Southeast Asian countries, several of which are locked in maritime disputes with China.

"I felt that they were just trying to echo each other," Wang said.

Hagel later held a bilateral meeting with Wang, where the Chinese military leader expressed his surprise at the U.S. defense secretary's speech.

"You were very candid this morning, and to be frank, more than our expectations," he said. "Although I do think those criticisms are groundless, I do appreciate your candor … likewise we will also share our candor."
http://news.yahoo.com/u-backs-japans-abe-tells-china-stop-destabilizing-022309858.html;_ylt=AwrBEiHMyolTByUAbUbQtDMD

Hm, so China says the US was tougher than "their expectations" -- that's a good thing. Because expectations are that Obama is so weak.

Meanwhile Japan is stepping up as a leader in the region countering China, with the US backing Japan.

Maybe the Obama admin is finally learning a thing or two -- that you cannot waffle, you cannot be weak, and that a place like China really just wants *clarity*. If you let things get to a mess and then you do something about it, then it's just a bigger mess, so just give these other nations *clarity* from the outset and avoid the big mess to start with, and everyone appreciates that in the end.

Allies and adversaries alike are both looking for clarity, and consistency. Which have not happened under Obama and has led to a more destabilized world.

Maybe they've learned after Crimea. But, I'll note that President Obama doesn't seem handle this so much anymore, it falls to General Dempsey giving warnings to Russia, and talking to China, and now Defense sec Hagel. At least someone is doing it, but it's supposed to be the President.

[radon1]

Looks helpful. Perhaps, it is now Xi's turn to give in to Pu on the NG price.

[Plantagenet]

It doesn't matter anymore when Obama says "I'm not weak" or Hagel tells China there is yet another "red line". Everybody knows Obama actually IS weak and Hagels speech was just empty bluster

[Sixstrings]

It doesn't matter anymore when Obama says "I'm not weak" or Hagel tells China there is yet another "red line". Everybody knows Obama actually IS weak and Hagels speech was just empty bluster

US gov has been pivoting to Asia and countering China for years now. I don't know all the thinking on this, why it's so important, but Asia is the focus now.

That goes deeper than Obama. The whole military establishment has been re-gearing to focus on Asia.

So.. I think US will stand firm on it. Regardless of Obama. Which is why Russia really ought not to pick a cold war with us, because, once the wheels get started on that it just doesn't stop. China was the "bad guy" and Putin kept chirping "me too, me too."

[Sixstrings]

Looks helpful. Perhaps, it is now Xi's turn to give in to Pu on the NG price.

Nope. I bet you that you are wrong.

China is not Russia. China has 1+ billion people and cannot tolerate instability and doesn't have the internal control that a Putin has over Russia.

And China has so much money invested in the US, and into globalism. They will never rock the boat as Russia has, China knows the importance of stability.

China will back down to the US. And as that quote indicates, they probably appreciate the clarity finally coming out of the Obama admin.

If they ever really do want a fight then bring it on -- we can have all of Asia versus China and all of Europe versus Russia. Think of that for a moment -- why is it the same with Russia and China, all their neighbors opposed to them?

It's not just the US. Russia has problems with Poland and Germany and everyone over there, and with China they have problems with all their neighbors. Vietnam, South Korea, Japan, Phillipines. The Aussies just take the Chinese money and enjoy shrimps on the barbie and go surfing, maybe Australia will wake up and come back to the alliance in the end, maybe not.

(seriously, it's not the US pushing this -- in east europe we've got Estonians and Latvians and Poles saying where the hell are you guys? And in Asia, it's Japan and South Korea saying the same.

In a way, Poland has been a leader on the euro front, and Japan a leader in Asia.

Of all of them -- we definitely must be there for Japan and South Korea, those are solid critical allies. And for historical reasons, we have to look out for the Phillipines too -- Phillipines aren't any use as an ally but we can't let them go either, it's historically American, you let a China take that over and push around and that's too close to Hawaii for comfort.)

EDIT: my posts are too long -- Radon, comrade, I'm tellin' ya. THE CHINESE LOVE A BARGAIN. That's the bottom line. They are not going to pay more for Russian gas, don't count on it. You can believe me or not believe me, but it's not gonna go well with China.

They will always want a bargain. We're talking about people that export dog food so toxic it killed a bunch of dogs. They exported toxic drywall, big huge mess here in the States. Their own people love Kentucky Fried Chicken because they know it's safe. Chinese vendors put plastic in the rice.

The Chinese will NEVER pay what the Germans did for gas. Believe me or don't.

They will never be good solid allies for Russia. They will always be trying to game Russia, and here Russians thought the West was bad, you'll find out.

You guys are European. You've got nothing in common with them, neither religion nor ideology, just totalitarian governments and wanting to push against the US to expand a little bit -- that's your only commonality.

Wheres our side has ideologies in common -- democracy, and free speech, our whole way of life. That's what we have in common with South Korea and Japan. The Aussies.. I don't understand them.. they don't get the threat about China, but at least in the end they've never listened to Chinese demands to dump us.

Which is smart, the Aussie government aren't idiots, and Australia is happy to benefit in the middle but they know the risks from total Chinese domination and will always keep uncle sam in their back pocket.

If things heat up though, it would just be swell of the Australians to get a little backbone and stand alongside the other democracies in the Pacifc.

Back on topic..

If you turn out to be right Radon, I'll post in all caps how right you were and how wrong I was.

But I'm just tellin' ya..

1) China will not pour money into Russia for the same reasons the West doesn't. Other than at home, the Chinese like to pour their money into democracies with rule of law.

If they put a lot of money into less stable places, then *they want control*, which Putin will not give them.

Ergo, the money will not come, Radon.

2) China would actually rather back down and forget about airplanes on Filipino coral reefs, rather than pay one yuan more for Russian nat gas.

Or, more importantly, they cannot risk instability. They can't have a conflict with us. We buy their plastic pumpkins, hundreds of millions of them would be out of work and hungry if we didn't give them our jobs and buy their plastic stuff with our magic financial sector money.

Radon, China won't ever put big money into Russia just over geopolitical problems with the US, it's not going to happen. They'd flip sides and come back to our side, in the end, if the leverage gets them cheaper gas from Russia. That's how they are. Believe me or don't.

[ROCKMAN]

"We firmly oppose any nation's use of intimidation, coercion, or the threat of force to assert these claims." So taking Mr. H at his word the US would oppose Japan's use of intimidation, coercion, or the threat of force to assert their claims on the disputed area.

Seems fair that we object to any such actions taken by China AND Japan in this matter.

[radon1]

They will never rock the boat as Russia has, China knows the importance of stability.

Convincing analysis. Accordingly, Xi will tell Pu: "Look, Pu, we will never rock the boat, we know the importance of stability, therefore we won't give in to you on the price."

we can have all of Asia versus China and all of Europe versus Russia.

why is it the same with Russia and China, all their neighbors opposed to them?

[ROCKMAN]

"why is it the same with Russia and China, all their neighbors opposed to them?" Probably because many of them want to be an alpha but don't have the balls for it. LOL.

Reminds me a long ago incident when I was visiting with a land owner on her property. She was one old tough south Texas bird...retired Marine Corps major. Was giving me a bit of a hard time. Walking back to her house me and her brother trailed behind her. He told me I shouldn't take any crap off his sister. The funny part was that he said it in a whisper so she couldn't hear. LOL. Lots of folks can be very brave...when it's someone else's ass on the line.

[Sixstrings]

Convincing analysis. Accordingly, Xi will tell Pu: "Look, Pu, we will never rock the boat, we know the importance of stability, therefore we won't give in to you on the price."

What are you talking about giving in on price, I thought it was a done deal, did I miss something.

Can you link anything? Is Russia trying to get them to renegotiate the price they both just agreed to????

Good luck with that.

You can have these Chinese, they're a darn headache, you won't believe me but I'm trying to tell you they will nickel and dime you to no end. And take all your jobs. And swoop in on your farmland too. Wait and see, you'll be paying more for food one day while things are grown in Russia and earmarked for China alone -- it's happened in the US. We have agriculture in California that only China gets to have, it's like darn England with Ireland in the potato famine and people wound up starving while crops were shipped back to England.

Only way for Russia to get more money out of China will be colonialism into Russia. If the Chinese do pay a nickel more, the price for Russia will be *control* by them.

You can have them, we Americans are kind of tired of the toxic drywall that caused untold amounts of money lost with everyone's house stuck with this crap that had to be replaced.

We're tired of their crap dog food and crap people food that's not safe. We're tired of our oligarchs sending all the jobs over to them, and we buy the plastic pumpkins with home equity loans. You can have them, we're tired of it.

Chinese are good people and make great immigrants, but they've got a mess back at home and Radon -- that is why they only put a lot of money into places that are not a mess. They are shrewd, shrewd people with their money. They won't put it into Russia.

[Kylon]

I think you are forgetting one factor though Sixstrings:

The United States isn't controlled by the people.

It's controlled by corporations and oligarchs.

It doesn't matter if what China is doing is bad for the American people, as long as the Chinese send some bribe money through shell corporations through political action commitees. Then offer lucrative consulting jobs to politicians, regulators, and military personell.

So I expect things to get worse in America, and China to effectively gain more and more control. Any society that allows it's elites to be corrupted on a large scale, is at the mercy of societies that are less easy to corrupt.

You should look into the book "Confessions of an Economic Hitman". Basically all the United States ruling class had to do to takeover the world's resources, was combine bribery with threats to members of the ruling class in those societies. The only societies that could have even have a chance of resisting the U.S ruling class, were societies where the ruling classes couldn't be easily bribed or intimidated.

China could effectively do the same thing to the United States (and I'm sure they are). They could basically offer bribes to individuals who were willing to do what they wanted. If an individual wasn't willing to go along with the bribes and threats, then they'd bribe other members of that part of the government, and get those individuals to fire/stonewall/demote the individual who refuses to be corrupted.

We've seen with the financial corruption cases how little punishment has been dolled out to corrupt financiers and bankers who almost completely destroyed society (usually in fines which the bankers simple account for as the cost of doing business, and which through their dealings they make back quickly).

Unless the United States can get money out of politics (legalized bribery of politicians), I don't see how the United States could ever hope to have a snowballs chance in hell of remaining an empire. It's far more likely that the United States will become full blown banana republic, with American financiers and ruling class individuals selling out the American people to become part of the empire that forms from the Chinese.

However, I do think their will be alot of empty rhetoric and yelling by military personell and politicians to put on a good show for the people. After all, if the people don't think that a politician/general won't protect them, they'll vote/push for them to be removed from office. If they are voted out of office, they can no longer sell their services to corporations, which means they no longer get those nice lucrative consulting jobs.

[americandream]

Global capitalism is cultural with its roots in London. The power centre will always reside there till the system's collapse.

I think you are forgetting one factor though Sixstrings:

The United States isn't controlled by the people.

It's controlled by corporations and oligarchs.

It doesn't matter if what China is doing is bad for the American people, as long as the Chinese send some bribe money through shell corporations through political action commitees. Then offer lucrative consulting jobs to politicians, regulators, and military personell.

So I expect things to get worse in America, and China to effectively gain more and more control. Any society that allows it's elites to be corrupted on a large scale, is at the mercy of societies that are less easy to corrupt.

You should look into the book "Confessions of an Economic Hitman". Basically all the United States ruling class had to do to takeover the world's resources, was combine bribery with threats to members of the ruling class in those societies. The only societies that could have even have a chance of resisting the U.S ruling class, were societies where the ruling classes couldn't be easily bribed or intimidated.

China could effectively do the same thing to the United States (and I'm sure they are). They could basically offer bribes to individuals who were willing to do what they wanted. If an individual wasn't willing to go along with the bribes and threats, then they'd bribe other members of that part of the government, and get those individuals to fire/stonewall/demote the individual who refuses to be corrupted.

We've seen with the financial corruption cases how little punishment has been dolled out to corrupt financiers and bankers who almost completely destroyed society (usually in fines which the bankers simple account for as the cost of doing business, and which through their dealings they make back quickly).

Unless the United States can get money out of politics (legalized bribery of politicians), I don't see how the United States could ever hope to have a snowballs chance in hell of remaining an empire. It's far more likely that the United States will become full blown banana republic, with American financiers and ruling class individuals selling out the American people to become part of the empire that forms from the Chinese.

However, I do think their will be alot of empty rhetoric and yelling by military personell and politicians to put on a good show for the people. After all, if the people don't think that a politician/general won't protect them, they'll vote/push for them to be removed from office. If they are voted out of office, they can no longer sell their services to corporations, which means they no longer get those nice lucrative consulting jobs.