[digging]

'EREI' We hear this term being used when describing the different forms of energy we receive through fuels, hydro, solar cells etc after we've used some energy to get the final energy. Now because of this I’ve started to wonder how can we figure the EREI for biological integrated farming systems?

For example what would the EREI be for a maximum energy efficient solar greenhouse?

http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/solar-gh.html with a barn built on the north side for housing small live stock so their breath (CO2) would increase plant growth, some body heat, manure for making methane & fertilizer, food; eggs, meat, milk and textiles; fur, hides, wool, feathers. Then if we keep adding integrated systems as we improve like permiculture ethanol production http://www.permaculture.com/ in the back barn so the excess heat (from biochar production) and CO2 is once again harnessed along with the other useful by products for food production (fish, mushrooms, fertility). Now because of the biochar and organic fertilizers the plants will grow and harness greater amounts of solar energy, thus helping the whole system increase and improve.

If we could calculate the EREI on such a system which I’m sure would be very good and equal to or greater than energy systems many are dependant on now. If this could be done then we might have a tool to show people it’s worth $$$ their efforts to redirect their energies into learn about and creating such systems.

Digging

[sparky]

.
I like the idea of the growing area connected to the stables , there is a lot of complementarity
too much maybe , the separating wall better be strong

[mos6507]

There's definitely a right and a wrong way to build greenhouses. My aunt works at a nursery and guess what they have on the ends of the greenhouses? Huge oil burners like what you'd have to heat a home. And they go through a LOT of oil in the wintertime. Why is that? Because the greenhouses are typically film-based and they have no internal thermal mass. So they leak heat like a sieve. This is just the way it's been done, and because their business can make a profit on the flowers they sell vs. the cost of the oil to heat the greenhouses, there's no incentive to change. It will be interesting to see what $100+ oil does to their business model.

[digging]

The more shared connections (greenhouse/animals) we can make the greater the energy saved, the farther we can make the energy go. We need to relearn from nature the strongest systems work together sharing everything. Often you here people say they don't want to go back to the horse and cart. Well we have knowledge about natural energies past peopled didn't know about. Methane gas production, Alcohol fuel (brazil style)
wind advancements, solar both power and water/space heating/ geothermal/hydro.
IF we join this knowledge with a return to agrarian living I'm sure our energy needs(maybe not wants) could be met with greater happiness levels in our lives.

Look at Iceland they have geothermal power so they can recover from the thieving banksters. True wealth comes from learning how to tap into natures renewable systems.

Digging

Digging

[Ludi]

Hi, digging. You won't find much interest in what you're posting about here, I'm afraid, but I hope you continue, just in case you're able to help someone.

You might find more interest here: http://forums.sustainablecountry.com/forums/forum.php

[Pops]

Combining plants and animals in a small space really does sound good in theory and though I haven't any experience doing it I'll give 2 reasons it might be hard to pull off - from my experience.

First, confining animals causes them to get sick. I raise dairy calves and since I am smarter than everyone else, I decided it would be smart to keep them in pens in a barn, warm, dry and all that. Well, they died. They do best in little individual moveable hutches out in the open air till they are big enough to go on grass and have room to poop at will.

Which of course brings up the other problem, poop. Fresh manure contains all sorts of evil things and even though many bugs are specific to their host, many are not, E . coli especially, Salmonella and C. perfringens. These can be spread easily in dust or by insects or whatever.


I like the diagram in your link of the sunken, earth bermed greenhouse (The Walipini greenhouse) I'd guess that's about the best low-tech approach.

[digging]

Thanks Ludi for the heads up.

I'm surprized more peak oiler wound not be thinking about this changed way of finding energy in our enviornment. All plant growth is from solar energy the better we understand about all living systems the better we can find ways to meet our phyical needs. As for the greenhouse idea there was a great book written called Solviva, http://www.solviva.com/visit_solviva.htm. She kept rabbits and chickens in her greenhouse with thick bedding mulch and a special soil air filtering system.
I think one would do best by starting with small animals. Remember also the manuer can be used to make natural gas and then when spent is a great fertilizer. Also the animals don't need to stay in the greenhouse all year just wintered over.

Digging

[Ludi]

I'm surprized more peak oiler wound not be thinking about this changed way of finding energy in our enviornment.

A lot of people here have sort of given up and gotten all fatalistic and negative about everything. If you want to address those who haven't, it might be best to post in the "Planning for the Future" forum: planning-for-the-future.html

I've read "Solviva" and find it very inspiring - not good for my climate, though. Anna had a lot of trouble with the greenhouse chicken situation at first because the ammonia from the poop was killing the plants, so it's important to study what she learned from that to apply it to other similar situations. Being able to supply sufficient air flow in a low-energy or passive situation might be very difficult. I think she had some PV fans (I'd have to re-read it to know for sure) - I don't think it was 100% passive.

[Pops]

I think you should go for it and tell us how it works out! Don't let Ludi discourage you!

Here's my solar heated hen house:




And my greenhouse:




My plan for this year (it was last years plan but now it's this years plan) is to ad a sun room to MY house!

[Ludi]

Don't let Ludi discourage you!

I don't mean to be discouraging! I mean to say learn from other people's efforts!

PS your house is beautiful, Pops! Do you plan to include thermal mass in the wall between the sunroom and the rest of the house, for passive winter heating?

[Pops]

I don't mean to be discouraging!

The was for you, I's-kiddin'

Thanks, Ludi, we spend all our money on it, when we first bought it, Aaron said it looked like the Bate's Motel.

thermal mass in the wall between the sunroom ...

In fact, for literally decades, I've had an idea of cement blocks laid on the subfloor on edge to form a plenum that connects to an interior block wall, cold air enters the floor plenum at the glass, is heated and rises up the wall and vents into the house. The idea is all the block is more or less heated through and of course there is both convective and radiant heating....

But that's another thread

[digging]

OK so then Pops should I keep this thread here?

Yes way to go on the greenhouse and go for the heat storage via your neat idea for a sunroom on the front of your house. I'm going to be buying some solar water heating tubes this summer. http://www.wsetech.com/waterheaters.php
I live in the NWT of Canada so heating is a challenge. Just for the record we only burn fire wood for heating all winter for a good 6mnths.
We have also built a 20ft by 36ft passive solar greenhouse with a solid floor and 1ft thick walls insulated to R40. So far the greenhouse heats up amazingly. Even at -30c on a sunny day will go above 0 without any extra heating. This spring will be the first year I get to use it. I am a market gardener.

Digging

[Pops]

I can move it to PFTF but it's no biggie Digger.

Wow, I bet you are itching to get some stuff planted in that greenhouse, it sounds great! We don't get nearly as cold as you, we were -12 a couple nights this year and that's record territory. But we would need to use lots of auxiliary heat to keep anything growing all winter, we need some just to get starts going. A sunroom on the house kills 2 birds by adding some gain to the house and utilizing the heat you are already making at the cost of some glazing loss if you aren't careful.

I had thought I might be able to get a little more gain by putting some light colored gravel in from of my greenhouse, maybe this kind of thing would help you way up there? You'd need something like a water wall to absorb the radiation.



On second thought, I guess you don't need to put down anything reflective do you? You probably have all the reflective snow you need!

[davep]

Pops, for thermal mass you're better off using un-kilned clay bricks (I'm not sure of the term in English, in France they call it terre crue). There's not much better at absorbing heat except water.

[digging]

Yes lot's of snow until mid april. I am building two water storage areas under my two north wall benches I'm thinking I could also hook up the solar water heating tubes to heat this water mass. If I need to I can add more water in jugs up the north wall. We have bought a wood gasification boiler to heat all of our buildings had to order it from the USA. http://www.alternateheatingsystems.com/ ... ation.aspx
I'm going to run heat tubing in the soil of the growing beds which will be large grow boxes 2ft deep. It's very inportant to have a place to start all my transplants because of the shorter growing season here, but with transplants I can grow almost anything! We also have very few garden pests, mostly the bugs just want to eat the gardener!

I've also been doing alot of reading about biochar for soil creation and fertility maintance. http://www.biochar-international.org/biochar

How do you add pictures into the post like you have pops?

Digging

[Pops]

To post a pic, click the IMG button on the posting page and insert the address of the pic like this:
[img]insert-pic-URL-here[/img]

If you can't link from your computer, go to www.tinypic.com where you can upload your pic and then copy the [img] address to put in your post.

[Pops]

Digger, Here are a couple of links to my bog from last year on the greenhouse if you're interested...
general remodel - soil blocks - seed starting cabinet -
And this one on the heated benches might be interesting (even though you sound like you are way ahead of me)!

[sparky]

.
@ pops
"Combining plants and animals in a small space really does sound good in theory and though I haven't any experience doing it I'll give 2 reasons it might be hard to pull off "

Very true but it was done in mountain country in Europe . usually the stable was under the house in an house build on a good slope , it make thermal sense since the cattle has to be protected from freezing to death , beside keeping them warm cost less feed

@ davep

the big hearten stove in the middle of the house is a feature of all traditional buildings in central and Eastern Europe ,
,it's used for cooking and heating ,
it take forever to get warm but stay smug for the whole winter ,it's used for cooking
kids sleep on top

[papa moose]

.the big hearten stove in the middle of the house is a feature of all traditional buildings in central and Eastern Europe ,
,it's used for cooking and heating ,
it take forever to get warm but stay smug for the whole winter ,it's used for cooking
kids sleep on top

From low-tech magazine, i actually quoted this link in another thread a couple of days ago.

More general terms are tile oven, brick oven, ceramic stove, tiled stove, soapstone heater or masonry heater. The technology is more closely related to a traditional oven than to a metal stove – therefore the German term “kachelöfen” (oven stove) describes it best as an umbrella term.

A native german speaker actually corrects him in the comments section that “kachelöfen” translates to "tile oven".
Generally a very interesting site;
http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2008/12/tile-stoves.html