[onlooker]

more true words have never been spoken lol

[americandream]

There is capital and then there is capital. It all depends on what it represents in terms of its function in rendering the owner external to the process of adding labour value. Non capital type housing stock tends to be in the hands of the middle class, just a better fed wing of the labouring order. Whilst this stock takes a hit for this group in hard times, it is always a useful addition to the passive earning classes portfolio at any time.

[onlooker]

more true words have never been spoken lol

On, I take it you were referring to either Ibon's or my last post. In either case your appreciation is warranted.

your words PS of course haha

[Revi]

This is such a great discussion! I don't have time to get into it right now, but I am fascinated by it and will check it later!

[americandream]

yes what is uplifting about this traditional way of living is that people ultimately rely on each other. That is their greatest asset. I think their is something to be said about this in so much as it reinforces a sense of kindness and caring between folks rather then being atomized and individualized the way we are now in the Western world. The home is an extension of the family not to be sold or discarded.

Wonderful words but sadly not true for America. Not at all. Here the home is not a home. It is a sleeping facility in a bedroom community, a place to lay ones head between 10-hour shifts.

The real world in the USA is the grind to get ahead at work. It should a passion to protect and serve the family and the community.

Efficient optimisation of labour for the extraction of its value. The cultural underpinnings of this lie in the family, church and all the institutions and norms that we take for granted. And this is a function of these relations worldwide.

Humankind has the capacity to arrange a more representative set of relations which is why we gather in these places in search of answers....we sense that there is more to life than work and consumerism though what it is we have yet to determine.

[Quinny]

I've just started listening to the David Harvey - Kapital lectures, free on youtube. My bound versions were difficult enough to read when I had decent eyesight!

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/karl_marx_was_right_20150531

[Ibon]

Humankind has the capacity to arrange a more representative set of relations which is why we gather in these places in search of answers....we sense that there is more to life than work and consumerism though what it is we have yet to determine.

We recognize this sentiment and we also seem to have a consensus that we are headed toward a cyclical decline for the convergence of reasons we so often discuss here; climate change disruptions, resource constraints, disparity of wealth, aging infrastructure. It would seem that the failures of consumerism to nourish a culture in terms of social well being is only going to further amplify and the question then is at what point does this failure invoke a shift in cultural values. More and more folks are working more hours with less benefits in living arrangements where they do not know their neighbors nor have extended families. This isolated individualism was compensated up until recently with the shiny glitter of the promises of consumerism to make you happy. Of course even in its heyday we had record amounts of prescriptions written for Prozac but there was collective belief in this false promise. More and more we are shifting to a collective disillusionment on the economy or government delivering on its promises and the shiny new IPhones or whatever other symbol of cutting edge consumption isn't really enough to hold the dream together any longer. The emerging generations are going to adjust culturally.

We greatly over estimate the resilience of the BAU culture. I think the young generation emerging is shifting quickly, perhaps not perceptible on a monthly basis but nevertheless it is happening. It is only a couple years now that the dream popped that a college education guaranteed you a job. This is all new. The young generation is adjusting. Starting with one essential part of the puzzle. They are living with mom and dad and siblings late into their 20's and some into their 30's. Like in many other parts of the world.

America is learning, perhaps initially against their will, to rediscover family and community.

A silver lining of sorts.

[americandream]

Ibon,

To some extent, we are going to have to facilitate the culture shift with increasing depth and quality of discourse.....those of us with minds to discern.

Having said that, the context of that debate is showing some signs of eventually emerging çn the popular culture. It is being touched on by Hollywood, BEGORRAH! I would recommend the movie currently in circuit, Lucy which touches on the topic of dialectic consciousness, the objective and subjective, with surprising precision.....this is the touchstone of our continued presence in the material dynamic. The Cold War legacy of systemic ignorance and greed has made this process somewhat more complex.

[americandream]

I've just started listening to the David Harvey - Kapital lectures, free on youtube. My bound versions were difficult enough to read when I had decent eyesight!

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/karl_marx_was_right_20150531

Excellent synopsis, Quin. Anyone interested in the nature of material dialectic forces should have a squint at this link.

[Quinny]

Just realised my post had the summary of the link missing. Gotta fix this damn keyboard.

Only 2 pages long well worth a read, even for you died in the wool capitalists

What we saw in 2008 was the enactment of a welfare state for the rich, a kind of state socialism for the financial elites that Marx predicted. But with this comes an increased and volatile cycle of boom and bust, bringing the system closer to disintegration and collapse. We have undergone two major stock market crashes and the implosion of real estate prices in just the first decade of the 21st century.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/karl_marx_was_right_20150531

[Quinny]

Couple of points Pete:

1. the $5.3 trillion is from the IMF, not Hedges, - calculating externalities is always a challenging economic conundrum. Is the costs of treating lung cancer a subsidy to the tobacco industry.

2. The 'ff subsidy' is used as an example not a supporting argument.

I think Hedges analysis of what's happening is a good take on where we are at, after all even some right wingers describe bank bailouts as 'socialist'.

[Pops]

We're sorta straying off into the abstract rather than the particular I was trying to get to.

The original point I was trying for is most of us hold what wealth we have managed to possess in housing. In fact much of the capital in the world is now in housing, not facebook, not oil, not dollar bills or deposits.

When the music stops, due to [you know] in addition to the disappearance of "ethereal" capital - equities, government promissory notes, bank deposits, etc, housing values will also tank.

Is anyone planning or even considering that or just waxing on the ills of society and humanity at large?

[Quinny]

Many years ago at the height of the housing price boom, I was on a course in London and in the bar afterwards a lot of the young guns were bragging about how their houses were now worth XXxxxxx and had appreciated x% over the last couple of years.

An old guy who had a house in a very popular home counties town declared his house had not changed in value over the last 15 years. The group were incredulous and challenged the guy who let them rabbit on and then replied.

My house is still worth one home. There was a stunned silence whilst the penny dropped.

[careinke]

We're sorta straying off into the abstract rather than the particular I was trying to get to.

The original point I was trying for is most of us hold what wealth we have managed to possess in housing. In fact much of the capital in the world is now in housing, not facebook, not oil, not dollar bills or deposits.

When the music stops, due to [you know] in addition to the disappearance of "ethereal" capital - equities, government promissory notes, bank deposits, etc, housing values will also tank.

Is anyone planning or even considering that or just waxing on the ills of society and humanity at large?

The only thing that worries me about the price of our place, is it may rise in value. Property taxes are my worst fear in trying to keep this place viable for another few generations. If the land value plummets, it is a plus for me.

So my plan is to continue improving the land we have, and find a way to make it pay the increasing taxes I expect to be stolen from us in the future.

Would you consider the above a plan? I do.

[davep]

We're sorta straying off into the abstract rather than the particular I was trying to get to.

The original point I was trying for is most of us hold what wealth we have managed to possess in housing. In fact much of the capital in the world is now in housing, not facebook, not oil, not dollar bills or deposits.

When the music stops, due to [you know] in addition to the disappearance of "ethereal" capital - equities, government promissory notes, bank deposits, etc, housing values will also tank.

Is anyone planning or even considering that or just waxing on the ills of society and humanity at large?

The only thing that worries me about the price of our place, is it may rise in value. Property taxes are my worst fear in trying to keep this place viable for another few generations. If the land value plummets, it is a plus for me.

So my plan is to continue improving the land we have, and find a way to make it pay the increasing taxes I expect to be stolen from us in the future.

Would you consider the above a plan? I do.

This comes back to the fact that the only meaningful manner of increasing money supply is through bank credit for real estate (so money creation is linked to debt). The end game is that all property becomes increasingly expensive until the current banking system is changed. And they won't accept that change without a bloody fight.

[dolanbaker]

Just to back up that last post, UK houses are increasingly becoming investments rather than homes.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-32977217
Nearly four out of 10 homes were sold without the need for a mortgage in the first quarter of the year - a record high, the Nationwide has said.

The building society - the UK's second biggest mortgage lender - said that 38% of properties were sold to cash buyers.

It said that low interest rates had encouraged investment in bricks and mortar, while mortgage lending had been squeezed in recent years by the banks.

Houses are increasingly becoming unaffordable to the median income earners.