[Micki]

Believe it or not, peak oil is A RELIGION. Or something like it. Religion is really a pretty simple setup, pretty basic sequence, you know, like a football play.

1. Establish some principles. The more widely accepted, the better. The more sweeping, the more general, the better, since the follower has no real way of actually verifying it, hence they take it at face value.

Peak Oil: Say something like "according to the law and supply and demand..." or "oil underpins all economic activity in the U.S."

A Religion: "I have been sent by God, I have seen the spirit realm" or "Reptilia have been living in underground bases for hundreds of years, all throughout the world"

2. Make up some facts to support your principles. The more believable, the better. Try to make is as mathematical, scientific sounding as possible. Make up a plausible, logical story.

Peak Oil: Make some graphs based on data from dubious sources. The more official sounding the source, the better. For example, "According to the ASPO study, we use 87 million bpd worldwide". "US oil peaked in 1970." "World oil production has been plateuing for 6 months, according to the EIA data."

A religion: Make an interesting looking relic, perform some superhuman feat, make up a tale about the origin of mankind (think Mythology), make up a story about aliens in another dimension. "There is a spaceship behind Haley's Comet"

3. Draw a shocking, sensational conclusion from these facts.

Peak oil: "The world oil production rate has peaked." "The world economy is going to crash" "Life as we know it is over"

A Religion: "The spaceship behind the comet is going to come. We have to eat this poison, free ourselves of this mortal body, so that we can go in it." "The world is going to be over-run by armored, laser-equipped reptilian." "The world is going to be destroyed."

4. Get some prominent, educated people to lead the movement.

Peak oil: Matt Simmons, Mike Ruppert, James Schlesinger, oil company CEOs

A Religion: Kings, Popes, Preachers, Jim Jones,

And, bam! You got another cult. A tell-tale sign of a cultist is the absolute refusal to question their own strongly held positions. Another word for that is blind faith. Peak-oil seems to resonate best with "science" oriented folks. The simple notion that peak oil is "based on science" is enough for them, because "science" is based on "facts, analysis".

The problem with "science" in this world today is that anyone, ANYONE, can MAKE UP DATA and OMIT ACTUAL DATA, analyze it, and paint any picture they damn well please. That people seem to have blind faith in so-called science is too bad. They'll be fine as long as the scientists aren't lying.

Peak oil is on par with evolution, aliens, global warming, christian fundamentalism, basement cults, some conspiracy theories, etc. in that they all share this same faith-based structure.

But, I am real, you are real, and so there is a reality, an explanation to the world. Once being a peak oiler believer, through plenty of research and observation of recent events, I feel I am closer to this reality than before. Unfortunately, I don't think this is a receptive environment to new ideas, so I won't even bother talking about it.

The basic, fundamental problem with peak oil, although it is logical and plausible, is: It is too narrow in its consideration of world issues, based on faulty understanding of how the world works, and the source data is obviously manipulated.

How about substituting Peak Oil with Abiotic Oil and you get the same result.
Does that mean anything related to oil is religion?
How about global warming? Benefits of water fluoridation? Danger of Water fluoridation? Importance of right posture?
I think you could fit any of those quite easily in the same framework.

[Ludi]

Peak can only happen (and most likely has) one way, when maximum oil production occurs. Simple.

Raisinbran doesn't understand what peak oil is, apparently.

[SeaGypsy]

Peak religion? Peak normality? Peak wilful ignorance? Peak war? Peak lnsanity? Peak legalese? Peak depression? Peak Peak?
Peaking peeking freakin peepers poppin peppers?

[SeaGypsy]

Peak religion? Peak normality? Peak wilful ignorance? Peak war? Peak lnsanity? Peak legalese? Peak depression? Peak Peak?
Peaking peeking freakin peepers poppin peppers?

[raisinbran]

So - Peak oil will occur, just not how (I, Ludi, Pstarr, Shanny, MOS, RE, DaveP, JPL, Pret, Jack, SG etc etc etc..) think it will

So how do you think it will occur?

"Peak oil will never occur, like you think it will."

Does that mean anything related to oil is religion?

No, I'm saying that certain people following Peak oil show hues of cult/religion. The same can be said about certain fanatics of global warming, evolution, christian fundamentalism, scientology, et al.

this notion "peak everything" also treats natural resources as the god of the earth, with power over all!

[raisinbran]

Raisinbran doesn't understand what peak oil is, apparently.

"Peak oil is the point in time when the maximum rate of global petroleum extraction is reached, after which the rate of production enters terminal decline. The concept is based on the observed production rates of individual oil wells, and the combined production rate of a field of related oil wells." Wikipedia


Sounds very simple doesn't it. It plays right into the official view of the world, the free market, laissez faire, autonomous world we live in. Forget that PEOPLE are a factor at all in this world. People don't lie, cheat, steal, use deception in this world, because that would be wrong, and people are incapable of doing wrong. I mean, if that were the case, if a lot of people were lying, cheating, and stealing on a grand scale, they would definitely be found out, justice would be served!! I mean NO BODY in the entire earth is taking ADVANTAGE of the entire population and LYING in their face. Not even Wall Street. Because people are greedy, and selfish, and are never capable of cooperating with each other to take advantage of the masses. I mean, it would be impossible. Conspiracies can't exist, it's totally impossible, right?

People are capable of raping little children, systematically killing millions of people, dropping nuclear bombs on cities, torturing in the most sadistic, inexplicable way. But never for the life of me would powerful, rich people lie to the masses, cooperating with each other to screw them. It's not possible, because that's hogwash "conspiracy theory"!

[Quinny]

Forget what different peoples opinions of the outcome of Peak Oil are - just answer the question. Yes or no.

Do you think there will be a Peak in Oil Production?

So - Peak oil will occur, just not how (I, Ludi, Pstarr, Shanny, MOS, RE, DaveP, JPL, Pret, Jack, SG etc etc etc..) think it will

So how do you think it will occur?

"Peak oil will never occur, like you think it will."

Does that mean anything related to oil is religion?

No, I'm saying that certain people following Peak oil show hues of cult/religion. The same can be said about certain fanatics of global warming, evolution, christian fundamentalism, scientology, et al.

this notion "peak everything" also treats natural resources as the god of the earth, with power over all!

[raisinbran]

Do you think there will be a Peak in Oil Production?

No.

Oil is finite, the deeper oil is harder to get. And yet, I say, no.

Just because oil is finite, doesn't necessitate the need for a peak. If half the population disappeared tomorrow, and we would all go back to the stone ages (without using oil),forever, there would never be a peak. The oil is still there, right?

Humanity does NOT HAVE to use all the resources, does it?

[Quinny]

Well at least thats clear.

I believe most people whether Peak Oil aware or not would agree that it takes more faith to believe in infinite oil supplies than to believe that there will never be a peak. I think it's you that would qualify as religious!

[WhatMeWorry]

Do you think there will be a Peak in Oil Production?

No.

then you obviously don't belong here. You are not intelligent or educated enough to discuss the technical issues and you understanding is only emotional/psycological and this is not a self-help group.

goodbye shut the door behind you.

pstarr -3 rasinbran -0 by my count. Game over

[Quinny]

Despite your changes your logic is still flawed.

The oil is still there, but production will have peaked.

I suppose you could say that thousands of years from now we move back to a situation where more oil is produced, but your fantasies are becoming worse than those you initally accused the Peak Oil religionists of!!

If oil is finite then there will be a peak in production there might still be millions of tonnes in the ground ther might be next to none but there must be a f***ing peak at some time.

How can anybody deny that?

Do you think there will be a Peak in Oil Production?

No.

Oil is finite, the deeper oil is harder to get. And yet, I say, no.

Just because oil is finite, doesn't necessitate the need for a peak. If half the population disappeared tomorrow, and we would all go back to the stone ages (without using oil),forever, there would never be a peak. The oil is still there, right?

Humanity does NOT HAVE to use all the resources, does it?

[Ludi]

Just because oil is finite, doesn't necessitate the need for a peak. If half the population disappeared tomorrow, and we would all go back to the stone ages (without using oil),forever, there would never be a peak. The oil is still there, right?

Humanity does NOT HAVE to use all the resources, does it?

Like I say, raisinbran doesn't understand that "peak oil" means "peak oil production." Not "when all the oil is produced" or even "when most of the oil is produced." There could be 75% of the oil still left in the strata - if we never get more out than the maximum we ever produce, that maximum would be "peak oil."

How do you debate someone who doesn't even understand the subject he's trying to debate?

[WhatMeWorry]

"Like I say, raisinbran doesn't understand that "peak oil" means "peak oil production." Not "when all the oil is produced" or even "when most of the oil is produced." There could be 75% of the oil still left in the strata - if we never get more out than the maximum we ever produce, that maximum would be "peak oil."

How do you debate someone who doesn't even understand the subject he's trying to debate?"

We have a winner!!! Enough said.

[kublikhan]

No, I'm saying that certain people following Peak oil show hues of cult/religion.

I agree. That does not mean that the peak oil theory is a religion. There are plenty of logical people on this board who do not subscribe to any kind of cult mantra of peak oil.

Just because oil is finite, doesn't necessitate the need for a peak. If half the population disappeared tomorrow, and we would all go back to the stone ages (without using oil),forever, there would never be a peak. The oil is still there, right?
Humanity does NOT HAVE to use all the resources, does it?

Like I say, raisinbran doesn't understand that "peak oil" means "peak oil production." Not "when all the oil is produced" or even "when most of the oil is produced." There could be 75% of the oil still left in the strata - if we never get more out than the maximum we ever produce, that maximum would be "peak oil."
How do you debate someone who doesn't even understand the subject he's trying to debate?

+2

Ludi pretty much nailed it. You example is flawed Raisinbran, as is your understanding of peak oil.

[raisinbran]

Wow,

You don't think i know what peak oil is? Please, if you are so willing, read, or at least look at, my full-fledged Peak oil report for one of my Mechanical Engineering classes. You'll see all the peak oil dogma that was all the rage at the end of 2007.


http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=3b4aa497fc05ca89391d7d881749d3a7e04e75f6e8ebb871


Reading that report again, I realize that I used a lot of flawed assumptions. One is:

That resources are used in the most profitable way, as much as it necessary to promote growth. This basically means that the free-market, on the whole, operates to maximize oil production.

However, I have come to realize that production is NOT operated by the principles of the free market, oil being there for the taking to stimulate unlimited growth.

The way I see it, the world is not run by people who just want to industry to GROW GROW GROW, using up all the oil and resources that are profitable. A case in point is the diamond industry. In reality, there are enormous amount of diamonds in the world to be distributed. If all the diamonds available were distributed, the value of the diamond would plummet. Instead, the production of diamonds is highly monopolized, tightly controlled, so that the value of the diamond stays artificially high.

In like manner, production of oil, food, etc, are highly monopolized, because in reality all of the worlds IOCs and OPEC, and non OPEC, virtually all of them, are COOPERATING together to tightly control oil in such a way that the masses can continue to be subjugated, not necessarily to make a profit like in diamonds, but to continue to exert control.

Basically, if TPTB allowed resources to be used to develop a large mass of people, and allowed the oil to peak and start diminishing, thereby destabilizing the system they control, then in a way they are allowing the masses to diminish THEIR control of the system. They will NOT let the system they control crumble in a way they don't want, and they certain would never want to cede their power to the masses, which, if the system were to crumble due to peak oil, would certainly overtake TPTB.

In that way, TPTB would never allow such a "peak" of oil production to occur such that their system of control would be undermined. Instead, the plan is to subjugate the masses, which may result in a mass plague, another world war, or a nuclear holocaust, so they can continue their plans to establish a world government.

I invite you to google "world government" in the news section, and see that such a prospect is not so far-fetched.

But, you know, given that TPTB want to accomplish such a feat with minimal resistance, they are willing to LIE tremendously to the masses. So i would not be surprised if the "data" starts showing a decline in oil production. This fake data is nothing more than disinformation to mislead people into thinking that TPTB need to TAKE ACTION to resolve the crisis, which action would invariably simply be trying to establish some global authority over all nations, a de facto world government.

Perhaps the most blatant evidence of this I can provide is what Obama stated during his european trip last week:

"Now is the time for a strong international response. North Korea must know that the path to security and respect will never come through threats and illegal weapons. And all nations must come together to build a stronger, global regime."

http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=94301

He was talking about nuclear weapons here. However, it seems that he is interested in trying to solve the worlds problems, like "global warming", "peak oil", (neither of which are real) nuclear weapons, wars/conflict, problems through international cooperation, a "global regime" which is a euphenism for world government.

[raisinbran]

So there you have it. I have been trying to avoid revealing why it is I see things differently, because people automatically think "conspiracy" and turn their minds off, mindlessly. It is unfortunate, because there is overwhelming evidence for it, if one is willing to look. But, my anti-peak oil argument obviously does not make sense without explaining this.

Take it for what you will, if you don't like what I have to say, you can keep personal opinions to yourself, and respond with something more meaningful. If not, then I think my point has been established on this board, and that all I need.

Thank you.

[raisinbran]

.

[bodigami]

Raisinbran doesn't understand what peak oil is, apparently.

"Peak oil is the point in time when the maximum rate of global petroleum extraction is reached, after which the rate of production enters terminal decline. The concept is based on the observed production rates of individual oil wells, and the combined production rate of a field of related oil wells." Wikipedia


Sounds very simple doesn't it. It plays right into the official view of the world, the free market, laissez faire, autonomous world we live in. Forget that PEOPLE are a factor at all in this world. People don't lie, cheat, steal, use deception in this world, because that would be wrong, and people are incapable of doing wrong. I mean, if that were the case, if a lot of people were lying, cheating, and stealing on a grand scale, they would definitely be found out, justice would be served!! I mean NO BODY in the entire earth is taking ADVANTAGE of the entire population and LYING in their face. Not even Wall Street. Because people are greedy, and selfish, and are never capable of cooperating with each other to take advantage of the masses. I mean, it would be impossible. Conspiracies can't exist, it's totally impossible, right?

People are capable of raping little children, systematically killing millions of people, dropping nuclear bombs on cities, torturing in the most sadistic, inexplicable way. But never for the life of me would powerful, rich people lie to the masses, cooperating with each other to screw them. It's not possible, because that's hogwash "conspiracy theory"!

What are you implying? That TPTB invented Peak Oil for their benefit?