[vtsnowedin]

How audacious were these plans in the 1st place? They were always unfunded nonsense; only collective wishfull thinking let anyone believe otherwise.

There is a lot of variation between plans. Some are a lot better then others as far as solvency goes. Some require no employee contributions and the government entity has not invested enough or any money to build a fund. these are the ones that are looking at contribution rates that are 40% of current payroll or higher. Others like the one I paid into take a good chunk of the employees wages before taxes and invest them broadly. In my case the contribution rate was six percent and over the thirty years I paid in very close to 45K and with interest it added up to 100K. The rub comes in the amount of matching funds that should have been invested by the employer to keep the fund solvent. Something every legislative body finds hard to do any tight budget year. And on top of that is the soaring cost of health care which is eating up any fund balance in every retirement plan. Nobody ever put enough away to cover that and it is as if they planned on the government taking over health care on the United Kingdom model and the liability just fading away.
And then there is the biggest unfunded ponzi scheme of all ,Social security. compared to that one most of these other plans are paragons of fiscal responsibility. At least when the government stops trying to pay the bills on that one everyone will be in the same boat and the price of golf and mobile homes in Florida will drop for everyone.

[Cloud9]

After 38 years I get about $30,000.

[Umber]

US Veterans pensions are very generous by world standards. Soon there will be millions of ex service pensioners aged between 25 and 45. Up to half of these may qualify for 100% disability payments close to $1000 a week. A lot of these guys are capable of working but they know their rights and if they have been traumatised at work they will eventually qualify. Once qualified, why work?

A very good friend of mine is on a 100% disability payment from the VA. He gets roughly $2800 a month. That works out to about $646 a week, a long way from $1000. Do you have specific examples of people getting more? If not, don't just fling numbers out there.

Umber

[SeaGypsy]

US Veterans pensions are very generous by world standards. Soon there will be millions of ex service pensioners aged between 25 and 45. Up to half of these may qualify for 100% disability payments close to $1000 a week. A lot of these guys are capable of working but they know their rights and if they have been traumatised at work they will eventually qualify. Once qualified, why work?

A very good friend of mine is on a 100% disability payment from the VA. He gets roughly $2800 a month. That works out to about $646 a week, a long way from $1000. Do you have specific examples of people getting more? If not, don't just fling numbers out there.

Umber

Just asked one of my friends what they mean whaen they say $1k a week; turns out the guys I was talking to are getting a study allowance of $280 a week on top of their pension. Another point my neighbour made is that to buy the level of health insurance he has on the pension would cost at least $1k a month IF anyone would insure a person with such degree of medical history as to qualify for a pension. A couple of other guys are from Alaska and get royalties. The base pension is $2481 with no dependents or top ups.

In 2008 there were 23.2 million US veterans under 64.

Number of veterans 18 to 64 in the labor force in 2008 - 10.4 million

Number of veterans with any type of disability in 2008 - 5.5 million

Number of veterans with a service-connected disability rating - 3.4 million. Of this number, 588,000 have a rating of 70 percent or higher.

Number of veterans who received compensation for service-connected disabilities as of 2008 - 2.9 million. Their compensation totaled $36.2 billion

Total amount of federal government spending for veterans benefits programs in fiscal year 2008 - $84.4 billion. Of this total, $40.2 billion went to compensation and pensions, $37.9 billion for medical programs and the remainder to other programs, such as vocational rehabilitation and education.

http://www.disabled-world.com/disabilit ... istics.php



That would have to be pushing the 100 billion threshold by now surely? Barely rates a mention in the MSM and from what I can find it seems to come from general revenue on an annual grant basis. Several years ago attempts were made at establishing a fund but seemed to fall flat.

Given the US fiscal position it seems hyperinflation or default sre inevitable.

[deMolay]

The Story of Your Enslavement. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbp6umQT ... _embedded#!

[vtsnowedin]

[Total amount of federal government spending for veterans benefits programs in fiscal year 2008 - $84.4 billion. Of this total, $40.2 billion went to compensation and pensions, $37.9 billion for medical programs and the remainder to other programs, such as vocational rehabilitation and education.

Now consider that a Nimitz class aircraft carrier costs 22 billion dollars to build and operate over its fifty year lifetime and we have eight of them. Not worth a plugged nickel without the men and women to run it and fly its planes. I'm not a Veteran but I have family that are and it really frosts me whenever anyone chisels on Vets benefits and care. I want to take the REMF sallys and ship them to southeast terrors tan and leave them with a knife and one bullet for the wrong gun in the snow in a tropical uniform.

[deMolay]

Instead of cutting benefits for the military, many of who paid a heavy price. Maybe the US should start closing some of its 1,000 military bases and outposts. And let places like the EU pay their own way. Think of the enormous entitlement that countries that get to freeload off US Military Protection use as an advantage against US manufacturers and US citizens competing against US goods and services. Canada I know is a biggy in this department.

[vtsnowedin]

Instead of cutting benefits for the military, many of who paid a heavy price. Maybe the US should start closing some of its 1,000 military bases and outposts. And let places like the EU pay their own way. Think of the enormous entitlement that countries that get to freeload off US Military Protection use as an advantage against US manufacturers and US citizens competing against US goods and services. Canada I know is a biggy in this department.

I wouldn't call Canada's service in the wars of the last century freeloading. My father considered them the best men to have on his flank.

[the48thronin]

Instead of cutting benefits for the military, many of who paid a heavy price. Maybe the US should start closing some of its 1,000 military bases and outposts. And let places like the EU pay their own way. Think of the enormous entitlement that countries that get to freeload off US Military Protection use as an advantage against US manufacturers and US citizens competing against US goods and services. Canada I know is a biggy in this department.

I actually was agreeing with some of what you said... Then you turned left and headed for the blue zone under that strange flying thingy..

Can you give the names and locations of several of those military bases and outposts in Canada?

BTW possibly you might want to look closer at the Canadian/American military co-operation thing. Those KUNUKS do their share buddy... PS I am a US veteran of the south east Asian time line not a Canadian.

Many of us who did also a tour in Europe wonder why the USA pays Germany for the stationing of troops there, for my taste the Germans should be paying us or the bases should be ghost towns.. BUT your characterizing Canada as a freeloader/competitor hiding behind Mama USAs' military skirt shows a dreadful lack of real knowledge about military. Start with possible a comparison in POPULATION, and go from there to the comparison of US draft dodgers during Viet Nam vs percentage of Canadians enlisted in the U S Military (who did not have a draft). Then throw in a few numbers like percentage of active duty military actually serving in overseas assignments ( even focus on "combat zones" and get back to me again about those Canadians depending on the USA.)

[deMolay]

You guys miss my point on Canada. I am not dissing Canada's Military here. Canada kept Britain alive from 1939 until you guys got into the action in 1942, alone without the US. By this I mean Hitler would have starved out England by the end of 1939 if Canada had not manned up and kept the convoys going until the US came in after Pearl Harbour. But since the 1950's Canada has had a free ride when it comes to paying for our own protection. Canada has 36,000 miles of coastline on 3 Oceans, 3 diesel electric subs and about 12 1970's frigates. Our police force is larger than our military. We have about 5,000 combat ready troops at any one time. Half our F-18 fleet have been canabalized for parts, we have about 40 functioning F-18's. We have not been paying our way. The money that we saved by being your neighbour allowed us to pay for Free Healthcare, and endless entitlement programs. Get the picture. We know that our Big Brother the USA will not allow the Russians, Chinese etc to invade Canada, so we have had a free lunch. That is all I mean.

[SeaGypsy]

For similar reasons Australia is in both Afghanistan and Iraq despite the fact that there was never majority support for us being there. Without US involvment in the Coral Sea war with Japan they certainly would have invaded Australia. New Zealand is arrogant enough to think they would have been able to negotiate with the empire and avoid invasion, a theory they never had to test. The wisdom of hindsight. Without US back up, Australia is too tiny a population to justify holding on or to physicly defend against invasion by it's neighbours.

Most Australians understand this fact so 'put up' with unpopular wars like those we have been dragged into currently. Our protest movement is always 1 step behind the USA's. The current protest movement will not have the success of the Vietnam protests until it is Veterans themselves leading the protests, now as it was then.

It seems like this is turning into a tangent I had never thought of before, obligation of countries like Australia and Canada being morally obliged towards US Veterans. I doubt there is any legislative substance to back this up in any department; but I suspect an 'Honorable Discharge' notice would carry weight in a visa application for a US Vet in any allied country.

If the US is to end up going hat in hand to it's allies, the ability to pay VA pensions may well be a catalyst. The reason I brought it up on this thread is that I see this as a central obligation of the US Federal government, and seriously huge it is. In my mind these payments would be right at the very top of priority for the US. The danger to the national interest if these service people are disenfranchised cannot be underestimated. The history of violent revolution suggests that a country who cannot keep it's obligation to it's military personell has a very short future.

The other half of the Vet budget, for rehabilitation and training, is possibly equally important.
The US does not need a few hundred Timothy McVeigh's.

To my mind this is the canary to the US Fed's coalmine. When the Fed is finally bankrupt, it will not be bailed out by allies, because it's allies are either in the same fiscal position or are too small to make a difference. The takeover would be IMF/ World Bank administrators, dictating the finances of the country with carte blanche to do anything they like to keep the country financially afloat.
The way I see it the IMF/ World Bank would not prioritise Veteran's support. Likely it would be tent cities and soup kitchens for everybody who can't look after themselves, FEMA camps for stealers of loaves of bread/ apples. What this plan fails to account for is pissed off veterans going Rambo; not just a possibility in such a scenario but an inevitability.

The hundred broke cities are like extremities turning gangrenous in a patient in need of a heart transplant. You can cut off the toes, one or 2 at a time, then the fingers and ears. But sooner or later if you don't get a new heart into that patient there will be nothing left to save.

[Keith_McClary]

Think of the enormous entitlement that countries that get to freeload off US Military Protection use as an advantage against US manufacturers and US citizens competing against US goods and services. Canada I know is a biggy in this department.

And who are we being protected AGAINST ?

People who are justifiably pissed off at living under US backed dictatorships, most notably the Saudis, that pay for US backing by selling oil at bargain prices and buying from the US military industrial complex. Not to mention the folks who were ethnically cleansed from Palestine and had their property ripped off. And the survivors of your attacks on many other countries.

[deMolay]

Article states as many as another 30 cities could go bankrupt in Michigan alone. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/28/us/28city.html?_r=1

[Pretorian]

You guys miss my point on Canada. I am not dissing Canada's Military here. Canada kept Britain alive from 1939 until you guys got into the action in 1942, alone without the US. By this I mean Hitler would have starved out England by the end of 1939 if Canada had not manned up and kept the convoys going until the US came in after Pearl Harbour. But since the 1950's Canada has had a free ride when it comes to paying for our own protection. Canada has 36,000 miles of coastline on 3 Oceans, 3 diesel electric subs and about 12 1970's frigates. Our police force is larger than our military. We have about 5,000 combat ready troops at any one time. Half our F-18 fleet have been canabalized for parts, we have about 40 functioning F-18's. We have not been paying our way. The money that we saved by being your neighbour allowed us to pay for Free Healthcare, and endless entitlement programs. Get the picture. We know that our Big Brother the USA will not allow the Russians, Chinese etc to invade Canada, so we have had a free lunch. That is all I mean.

as Keith said there is nobody out there to invade Canada. And If US wanted to, there would be nothing that you could do anyway so why bother. I suggest Canada's Military is a decoration, an ornament of sorts, like red suits on mounted cops, etc.

[Revi]

These places are in real trouble. All of the places that used to work don't. The auto industry isn't coming back. They are building the Volt in Hamtramkt, but it doesn't seem to be helping the town out much.

http://www.greencarreports.com/blog/103 ... om-the-ev1

[deMolay]

Looks like Indiana is getting into the city bankruptcy business. "Bill Would Allow Indiana Cities To Declare Bankruptcy" from article, this would allow a state manager to take control of the city or town, and cut spending, lay off and dismantle pensions etc. http://www.courier-journal.com/article/ ... 043/-1/rss

[Serial_Worrier]

How many of these cities are utterly corrupt like Bell, CA?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_City_ ... ontroversy

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. We citizens have given the pols unchecked power for too long. We implicitly trust they have our best interests at heart, when in fact they are only aggrandizing themselves. They get away with it because the residents of those cities get pandered to with a combination of racial & union politics.

[Serial_Worrier]

Looks like Indiana is getting into the city bankruptcy business. "Bill Would Allow Indiana Cities To Declare Bankruptcy" from article, this would allow a state manager to take control of the city or town, and cut spending, lay off and dismantle pensions etc. http://www.courier-journal.com/article/ ... 043/-1/rss

I assume you favor the Feds bailing out all city/state pensions that are threatened due to bankruptcy. Where will the money come from?

[deMolay]

No serial worrier, I think that the spending has to stop, until the books are in balance again. If that means laying off public sector workers, I guess that is what would have to happen. If it means ending funding for special programs, then that is what should be done. Governments have been on a mad spending spree for 40 years, using tax dollars to buy votes. If the public sector workers have to have their contracts renegotiated then guess what, welcome to the real world. If the military has to close 800 of its 1000 bases, then guess what, get it done. No money means No money. The cheque has bounced. The Gold Card has been denied. The jig is up.