[abelardlindsay]

So you didn't actually answer my question about opening YOUR WALLET to pay for YOUR PRO-NEO-CON policy ideas.

I pay for it in taxes and inflation just like everybody else. Fortunately, there are more neo-con believers in our representative form of government than there are in your camp. This means that they will vote to tax and borrow for their various programs and if you don't pay your taxes in the form of little green pieces of paper that are being inflated, people from the government will come to your house and take you off to prison and sell your house at an auction to pay your tax lien. So I'm going to pay for the policy ideas and so will you or you'll get a visit from the IRS.

[abelardlindsay]

The underlying basis of much of my philosophy about all of these matters is the Kantian categorical imperative:

a) Treat persons as ends-in-themselves rather than as means to other ends. This is basically another formulation of a moral principle held in common by a number of global religions, and,

Sounds like a Prisoner's Dillema at best. Prisoner's Dillema's have a really really long history, they wind up in one of several outcomes which are too long to go into here.

b) Live only according to those principles that you would hold to be universal. This is the foundation of the concept of "a nation of laws, not of men", by which is meant, the same rules apply to everyone, and exceptions must be justified under principles that themselves are rules that would apply to anyone under equivalent circumstances.

So in this instance if everyone was treated perfectly equally, a law enforcer, in arresting law breakers, would have their actions being considered kidnapping and assault and thus violations of the law.

[MrBean]

Everyone knows the NeoCons are much closer Trotskyites than nazis. They've just changed from exporting one type of world revolution to another.

Hey, this trot doesn't take that kind of comparison kindly!!!

Stalinist national imperialism and militarism is much closer comparison.

[whiteknight]

Wow... glad I read this thread first...

If this is the way neo-Cons are welcomed I suppose an anarchist will be drawn and quartered right off the bat...

See ya all later

<<POOF>>

Aw hell, I never was one to walk away from a fight...

<<UNPOOF>>

[Aaron]

Good thread...

I have wondered about the big dog theory of the future myself.

Somebody has to be top dog... so who would we choose?

US
Russia
China

I have speculated that after the big wars which destroy modern society, Iceland will emerge as the dominant world power.

With unlimited geothermal power, Iceland will develop the most powerful economy left standing, and thus the most potent military.

I for one, welcome our Icelandic OverLords, and embrace their wonderful Nordic culture.

But seriously, unless we expect the remaining PTB to come together in a spirit of cooperation unprecedented in human history, there will be a dominant power...

So what's it gonna be?

Chinese, Russian, or American English

[whiteknight]

Good thread...

So what's it gonna be?

Chinese, Russian, or American English

I'm betting on Chinese (Mandarin), so much in fact I am looking at getting the language CDs and learning it. I think they are in the big dog position for several reasons.

#1) Population. They could field the military neccisary to occupy vital resources.

#2) Currency. They are buying gold and silver to back their external currency with. They are also buying intrest in mining companies with all those american dollars we keep sending them for their cheep junk.

#3) Industry. We (the west) are building factories in China to take advantage of their cheep labor force. Factories cant be packed up and taken home, they get to keep them when fuel prices make it silly to move cheep goods around the planet.

#4) Long Term Strategy. They have one. We dont. Nuff said.

So, can you speak Mandarin, the language of our new masters? If not, better learn fast. I plan to be in that happy spot of middle level oppressor, kinda like middle management but with more feudal perks like primanoctus with the peasant chicks Just call me Duke, or maybe Earl.. maybe Duke of Earl... Or Duke of Hazzard... not sure what my title will be.

[Keith_McClary]

It doesn't have any real answers, just destroy society and go back to whatever we were doing before the whole mess. Which is the same philosophy that Al Qaeda and various other who were trained by anarchists, in France and Europe, such as Pol Pot believed in.

I thought Al Qaeda was trained by the US CIA in Afghanistan.

[abelardlindsay]

It doesn't have any real answers, just destroy society and go back to whatever we were doing before the whole mess. Which is the same philosophy that Al Qaeda and various other who were trained by anarchists, in France and Europe, such as Pol Pot believed in.

I thought Al Qaeda was trained by the US CIA in Afghanistan.

I am sure the CIA is wishing they just let the Soviets have Afghanistan. There's nothing strategic there anyway. Us Neo-cons were really idealistic at the time and thought that we had to defeat communism though and free the world so we just had to stick our foot in it. It would have been a lot easier to deal with had we left a Soviet regieme there to grind the thing into the ground even further than it already had sunk at that point in time. Besides, If the Soviet Union and central planning had lasted, we would have had a lot less competition for oil exported from the middle east then we currently have from the capitalist governments of the countries of the former soviet union..

[Keith_McClary]

Us Neo-cons were really idealistic at the time and thought that we had to defeat communism though and free the world so we just had to stick our foot in it. It would have been a lot easier to deal with had we left a Soviet regieme there to grind the thing into the ground even further than it already had sunk at that point in time.

Yeah, those commies even let Afghan women get educated and have jobs. But the neo-cons soon fixed that.

[whiteknight]

What does everyone else's military run on? Solar Energy?

Yes eh, dontcha know about the Solar powered submarines of the mighty Canadian Navy! And the solar powered night bombers of the Italianm military! All amazing devices armed with the latest in solar powered lasers and photon torpedoes! very high tech my freind.

Yeah, we are SOOO screwed when the Canadian Solar Tanks start rolling over the border to instigate their reign of terror upon us. And do forget the nightly raids of theose devilish Japanese solar cruise missiles.

Time to give up dude...

[Skulljar]

Ok here we go with the "we." We need to secure this, we need to guard that, we need to kill, we need to fight. STOP SAYING WE because what you need to be saying is "I." Then maybe you will think twice about the path you've decided to tread so lightly upon with such confidence and patriotic zeal.

How about I strap you to the front of the first fucking tank so your corpse can be paraded through the enemies streets, taking small arms fire and being perforated, while RPGs blow your limbs off and reduce your body to chunks first. But thats ok because you'd probably be dead from the chemical agents that will cause you to begin hemorrhaging your own bodily fluids out of your filthy asshole and nose, as your muscles cramp and snap your bones and ligaments, and your eyes roll back in your head while you scream and foam in relentless pain. Then as your battered body finally falls from the tank you get run over by the rest of battalion of tanks one at a time and are reduced to a pile of red goo similar to jello and tomatoes, squashed all over the pavement. Then your son pops his head out of the turret and laughs at "tomato man," thanking god it's not him. Then your son watches as his gunner gets shot in the face, and pieces of his best friends skull fly into his mouth and the laughing face explodes in a red mist before his very eyes. Then your son gets to dismount and pursue on foot his enemy who is a 14 year old dark skinned boy with an AK and no clue about why he's fighting (just like your son) and corner the boy. Then they boy surrenders and your son begins to detain him, but your son's squad mates bayonet him to death and blow him apart with shotgun blasts, and your son watches this 14 year old who probably would have loved a game of soccer with your son and vice versa get slaughtered and laughed at. Then your son gets to write home to his family about his best friend's exploding face and his dads pureed corpse but the wife never writes back. He wonders if she and the boy are ok because the US has been without power for months, FEMA has been rounding up dissenters by the thousands and putting them in camps, and the cities have become festering ghettos under martial law.

And he thought Iraq was bad. But here he is again, after he was discharged honorably from the Corps, back in the fight for more resource wars and unjust murder. He thought he was out but presidential recall bit him in the ass. He thought about staying home with his family, protecting what was important, growing crops, organizing his community, localizing his economy. But the gov't called his ass up and he went.

I AM NOT GOING TO WAR OVER YOUR STUPID VISION OF GLOBAL FUCKING DOMINATION AND GETTING BLOOD ON MY HANDS WHILE THE POLITICIANS IN THIS COUNTRY KICK IT BACK HOME. FUCK YOU AND YOUR FUCKING GOD DAMN WARS YOU FUCKING PIG. Spend your apparently superior unending intellectual power on a better solution please. Thank you sir.

[abelardlindsay]

How about I strap you to the front of the first fucking tank so your corpse can be paraded through the enemies streets, taking small arms fire and being perforated, while RPGs blow your limbs off and reduce your body to chunks first.

So in your little fantasy world I'm George Bush (not some armchair political pundit) and you have a tank that you're driving around in Iraq (not the beat up jalopy you drive when you leave your parent's basement). Aren't those RPGs going to cause a lot of damage to your tank?

[Skulljar]

What's more is that you can take your standard of living, your quality of life, your SUVs, your 52'' TV, your 2700 sq. foot 3 person home, your shitty slave day job, your open roadways, your global political structure, your eggs for omelettes attitude, and shove it all right up your god damn ass.

I'd rather deal with starvation, disease, and marauding fellow Americans than leave my family alone with them, and go overseas on a killing spree so I can die alone and scared.

[Skulljar]

How about I strap you to the front of the first fucking tank so your corpse can be paraded through the enemies streets, taking small arms fire and being perforated, while RPGs blow your limbs off and reduce your body to chunks first.

I bet you had a really great orgasm writing that one.

Is that all you can say? Obviously you've misunderstood my point. I understand that thinking about these things personally happening to you and your family are hard to consider or imagine, but you need to do this. Please put down your defense (by attacking me) for a minute and contemplate these things. Just let it in brother, the anger, the hatred, the smell of corpses, the confusion, the worry, the resentment and disallusionment. Observe as everyone and your friends around you are reduced to barbarians (a term you like to use). Imagine fearing for the lives of those you've come to realize are more important than the crap you own and the power you possess, and not being able to do a damn thing about them. I know you're atheist and I am agnostic- delivery room/fighting hole or not, but please put yourself in the shoes of all those who will be fighting. Stop thinking so much about how the war will pan out and who will be on top because you don't know man. You think you do but you don't. Yes a die off is imminent, but we can make it natural. We can get prepared and make it slow. We can warn the public and maybe they will be less likely to overrun my prepared community. LESS LIKELY. It's called risk management. It's called being able to sleep at night, having done your best. No country will ever control the world, no people will ever rule the lands. Stop pretending that we will.

Read Generation Kill, then read Battle for Peace. Even warriors can be peace makers.

[Skulljar]

How about I strap you to the front of the first fucking tank so your corpse can be paraded through the enemies streets, taking small arms fire and being perforated, while RPGs blow your limbs off and reduce your body to chunks first.

So in your little fantasy world I'm George Bush (not some armchair political pundit) and you have a tank that you're driving around in Iraq (not the beat up jalopy you drive when you leave your parent's basement). Aren't those RPGs going to cause a lot of damage to your tank?

Alright I just read your edit. I flew off the handle a bit, but you just insulted the hell out of me. While your posts have enraged me up until this point, your insult has really made me feel sorry for you. I love you man. Please find peace in this world before you die.

BTW I do not live with my parents. My car is a jaloppy, but I take pride in this because it gets me by and is not more than one needs. I served my country honorably and have a loving family. I don't like Bush and many politicians, but it is my democratic duty to care. I try not to live in fantasy worlds, especially Roman Imperial wannabe ones. Risking pride or vanity, I'd say I sound like an average American, the way he/she was meant to be. Middle class heartbeat of America guy. They say "god, country, corps" but I say "family, country, corps." When you insult me for these things you hint at a certain personal financial security and social prestige that I have yet to attain. I am a slow bloomer in the studies of economics, philosophy, and politics, and my heritage is urban working class/mixed race, so I can't compare to you in those social departments. Insult me for it if you will but I live with personal integrity, absolute honesty, and unfailing ethic. We all have our strong points and weakpoints brother. Good night man.

[abelardlindsay]

What's more is that you can take your standard of living, your quality of life, your SUVs, your 52'' TV, your 2700 sq. foot 3 person home, your shitty slave day job, your open roadways, your global political structure, your eggs for omelettes attitude, and shove it all right up your god damn ass.

I'd rather deal with starvation, disease, and marauding fellow Americans than leave my family alone with them, and go overseas on a killing spree so I can die alone and scared.

Starving to death is arguably worse than dying in war which is usually over in a few seconds. Starving to death though is terribly painful when you're body starts slowly consuming its own organs, and is drawn out over weeks and ends in delerium.

Do you really think in 20 years there are still going to be 6 billion people on the planet? Are you going to be one of em? Wouldn't you be happy that your government was thinking about you? Besides, there isn't even a draft. 2,400 heroic Americans have died so far in Iraq. Which is a helluva lot less than died in Vietnam (50,000+).

Peak oil isn't going to involve SUVs, 52 inch TVs or suburbia. No matter what it's going to suck even if we come out on top but better that we're in control of the oil than the Islamic radicals. They would blackmail the whole world with their oil. Why do you think the Russians and the Chinese and the Europeans are moving the whole Iran security council thing forward?

[abelardlindsay]

I flew off the handle a little bit too but I was a bit distrubed with you putting me in the middle of your little tank story there. BTW, I sincerely respect your service in Iraq.

[Skulljar]

What's more is that you can take your standard of living, your quality of life, your SUVs, your 52'' TV, your 2700 sq. foot 3 person home, your shitty slave day job, your open roadways, your global political structure, your eggs for omelettes attitude, and shove it all right up your god damn ass.

I'd rather deal with starvation, disease, and marauding fellow Americans than leave my family alone with them, and go overseas on a killing spree so I can die alone and scared.

Starving to death is worse than dying in war which is usually over in a few seconds, not like the super-hero comic book death you described above. Starving to death though is terribly painful when you're body starts slowly consuming its own organs, and is drawn out over weeks and ends in delerium.

Do you really think in 20 years there are still going to be 6 billion people on the planet? Are you going to be one of em? Wouldn't you be happy that your government was thinking about you? Besides, there isn't even a draft. 2,400 heroic Americans have died so far in Iraq. Which is a helluva lot less than died in Vietnam (50,000+).

Peak oil isn't going to involve SUVs, 52 inch TVs or suburbia. No matter what it's going to suck even if we come out on top but better that we're in control of the oil than the Islamic radicals. They would blackmail the whole world with their oil. Why do you think the Russians and the Chinese and the Europeans are moving the whole Iran security council thing forward?

Damn I got to go to bed man!
No, I'd rather deal with starvation. I'd rather watch my family starve to death, and also starve myself than go overseas to kill people. I will only kill in self defense of a direct attack. I will not support presumptive strikes. I don't know how many "barbarians" you've had to deal with in your life, but they are real living people who can be educated. There is no room for military conquest in this world anymore. Stop thinking of enemies, borders, front lines. Those are things of the past right now and for a little while longer. The way of life does involve SUVs and 52'' TVs and is the reason we got into this mess. The lust to continue this way of life is leading us to impulsively horde and control power and resources while gambling on "lots of really intelligent people" to pull throgh for humanity. I'm telling you man, take the risk management approach and don't trust humanity or social/political structures to be failsafe. Don't be so certain that setting the example and launching off into global resource wars will not be our downfall. Wouldn't you rather see America lead the world through this crisis? At first I thought of buying a fortress home, hiding out. That's not going to work on my personal level, nor will it work out on a national level.

Also, you call people anti-american for expressing their disagreement with policy. This is silly. Don't call me anti-American because I feel that my country has been hijacked by neocons. If America goes the way of the dodo under countries that have been around for thousands of years, then so be it. Family, country, corps. I'll do my best to defend, but theres only so much I can do, and offensive aggressive murdering is not one of them.

Power down as peacefully as possible, and I promise, you'll get your bloody hand to hand combat and killing eventually on a smaller scale. Back to the days of front lines and "he's the enemy." As you say, it's inevitable. We don't have to show our ass on the way down though.

[Doly]

Starving to death is arguably worse than dying in war which is usually over in a few seconds. Starving to death though is terribly painful when you're body starts slowly consuming its own organs, and is drawn out over weeks and ends in delerium.

Actually, no, it generally isn't. All reports I've heard say that the first days of not eating are the hardest, not the last. By then you are pretty numb.

Anyway, there is no reason whatsoever to think that anybody will starve in any of the developed countries. Certainly not in the USA, with plenty of farmland. So stop dramatizing.

Do you really think in 20 years there are still going to be 6 billion people on the planet?

Yep. I do. I don't see why agriculture, of all things, would have to go down the drain, when there is so much slack in other things to cut first. Oil for essential things is the very last thing anybody is going to cut.

Wouldn't you be happy that your government was thinking about you?

That's the great question, isn't it? Who is the American government thinking about? I'd be a lot happier if I knew for certain they are thinking about the average American Joe, but I'm not that sure.

Why do you think the Russians and the Chinese and the Europeans are moving the whole Iran security council thing forward?

It's obvious, isn't it?

But then, why do you think that none of them are too happy to get their hands dirty? Maybe because there are plenty of gun-ho Americans to do the job? Maybe if the Americans weren't so happy to do the dirty jobs, the world would have to find a better solution to the problem.

[rwwff]

Also, you call people anti-american for expressing their disagreement with policy. This is silly. Don't call me anti-American because I feel that my country has been hijacked by neocons.

First off, most neocons do not call dissenters, "anti-American". Thats an accusation the media loves to throw about, but it is certainly untrue about most neocons. I would hope that liberals might offer the same presumption of good intentions towards the neocons with whom they disagree.

Power down as peacefully as possible, and I promise, you'll get your bloody hand to hand combat and killing eventually on a smaller scale. Back to the days of front lines and "he's the enemy." As you say, it's inevitable. We don't have to show our ass on the way down though.

It is my honest hope that a power-down policy can come about before seriously destabilizing things happen, and that our armed forces can come home and take up missions of internal defense. Not police work of course, but it would be a great benefit to the country if Joe Farmer could confidently load up a mule drawn wagon with grain or whatever, and make the fifty mile ride to the railhead and local auction yard without fear of roving bands of crack crazed bandits.

That hope aside, the currently elected representatives of the people of the US wish to pursue an aggressive policy overseas towards securing American access to oil. Civilian control has to remain the rule, whether that is lack of authorization to nuke Afghanistan after 9/11; or pursuing a blatant resource war in Iraq. The elected representatives have to call the shots, or we will be no better off than the various other coup plagued nations of the world.

Sometimes you just have to take the good with the bad.