[Plantagenet]

It's not the same. This is not a "yellow cake" WMD pumped up threat ..

So what is the supposed threat to the homeland this time?

[Sixstrings]

US and middle east coalition begin airstrikes, fighters bombers drones and tomahawks, against ISIL in Syria;

U.S. Begins Airstrikes Against ISIL in Syria

WASHINGTON, Sept. 22, 2014 – U.S. and partner nation forces have begun airstrikes inside Syria against terrorists from the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, Pentagon Press Secretary Navy Adm. John Kirby said in a statement today.

The strikes are being undertaken through a mix of fighter and bomber aircraft and Tomahawk Land Attack missiles, he said.“Given that these operations are ongoing, we are not in a position to provide additional details at this time,” Kirby noted.

U.S. Central Command has conducted a total of 190 airstrikes across Iraq in the battle against ISIL forces. The decision to begin the airstrikes in Syria was made earlier today by Centcom Commander Army Gen. Lloyd Austin, the admiral said. The strikes are being made under authorization granted by the commander in chief, President Barack Obama, as part of the comprehensive strategy to degrade and ultimately destroy ISIL.
http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=123233

Was watching CNN, analysts said it's noteworthy how fast Obama got this all together, and the size of the operation. There are five middle east coalition partners: Saudis, Jordan, UAE, Qatar and Bahrain.

What's notable is that their air forces are fully participating, dropping bombs and firing missiles along with the US.

Good job by the Obama admin and pentagon on this one, showing they can do something fast and get a coalition together, and his team has the sunni states fighting ISIL too so that's good and a big deal, these are arab sunnis bombing sunni terrorists in Syria.

[Cog]

Nothing good will come of this.

[Keith_McClary]

Nothing good will come of this.

Regardless of how you define "good".

[Cog]

Nothing good will come of this.

Regardless of how you define "good".

There is nothing to win here. You can not defeat ISIL without boots on the ground. The idea of training FSA soldiers for a year and putting them back into Syria is ludicrous.

There are a lot of bad things that can result from our meddling though. We had some good quality dictators in Syria, Iraq, and Libya. Our actions in destabilizing those regimes have led directly to the creation of ISIL.

[Sixstrings]

There is nothing to win here. You can not defeat ISIL without boots on the ground. The idea of training FSA soldiers for a year and putting them back into Syria is ludicrous.

There are a lot of bad things that can result from our meddling though. We had some good quality dictators in Syria, Iraq, and Libya. Our actions in destabilizing those regimes have led directly to the creation of ISIL.

Obama just needs to get it together. He may actually be on the cusp, of actually getting it together, finally. Or maybe it's the state department. Maybe OJT is finally over with and he's going to start doing something and getting it right and not just taking the "out" on everything and it's off to play golf.

Obama policy has been "lead from behind" and "wait for a coalition to form."

That has not worked up to now, but finally, they may have gotten it together and here it is working. This is a bit of a big deal Cog, this 5 nation sunni arab coalition. It's not just talk, their air forces are flying sorties and doing strikes right along side USAF and US navy.

They all have American planes anyway, and they've been trained by the US to use them. So now the alliance forms and comes together.

It's a good thing for US national security, geopolitical and the ISIS threat -- a defeat would have been these countries not coming on board. But my analysis on this was right -- a Saudi Arabia and a Jordan very well knows ISIS is a threat to them. And this was very important, to have these sunni countries on board and fighting them too, it couldn't be just the US.

Jordan publicly announced it is sending sorties into Syria to strike at ISIS. The spokesman also said that ISIS crossed Jordanian border the other day. Everything I've said has been right -- all these countries are threatened, the big danger is ISIS crossing over their borders.

Now the Kurds are having problems and getting pushed back up against the Turkish border. They're about to lose a town on the border and a lot more Kurdish refugees have come across.

Anyhow -- I give credit where it is due and Obama admin did a good job getting this coalition together. Now he goes to the UN today from a position of strength. He already has a strong coalition, 5 arab sunni nations and from what CNN says this air war is pretty heavy and intense they're all going for it.

ISIS has to be stopped, they're psycho and beheaded those Americans, I've already gone all through this all the reasons they have to be stopped.

So anyhow, good job Obama admin for this one. The British aren't even with us in the coalition, notice that? So these other allies are important. It's a big deal for them, sunni bombing sunni that's not easy to do; Obama did a good job on this to get them together under US leadership.

[Withnail]

Was watching CNN, analysts said it's noteworthy how fast Obama got this all together, and the size of the operation. There are five middle east coalition partners: Saudis, Jordan, UAE, Qatar and Bahrain.

What's notable is that their air forces are fully participating, dropping bombs and firing missiles along with the US.

It's a bit of a concern that our pro democracy allies are for the most part notorious human rights violators who are not democracies.

[Sixstrings]

It's a bit of a concern that our pro democracy allies are for the most part notorious human rights violators who are not democracies.

Withnail, the world will never be perfect. But at the end of the day, at least the US does give those "human rights lectures" to its own allies, and your country does that too, and these places like Saudi Arabia do make slow progress over time.

Whereas a Russia -- some human rights problems of its own -- will just sell the weapons in "no strings attached" arms deals. Russia does not give those human rights lectures.

Anyhow -- British parliament already voted a year ago against air strikes in Syria. Brits aren't with us on this one.

But that's ok. Maybe even for the best, just the US, and otherwise it's an all arab coalition.

Obama admin did a good job on this, this was important for US leadership in the middle east. France won't help and Britain won't help, but Obama got all the sunni nations together, flying alongside the USAF and US Navy to go after ISIS.

[Withnail]

It's a bit of a concern that our pro democracy allies are for the most part notorious human rights violators who are not democracies.

Withnail, the world will never be perfect. But at the end of the day, at least the US does give those "human rights lectures" to its own allies, and your country does that too, and these places like Saudi Arabia do make slow progress over time.

I don't see much if any lecturing going on or any significant change in Saudi's human rights record. If anything they seem to be beheading even more people.

What the UK government says or does is of course irrelevant, since it's just a US puppet regime.

[Sixstrings]

Just to note, US let Syria know about the strikes ahead of time. The coalition isn't touching anything Assad, so far Assad is letting the coalition do its work.

It certainly helps Assad, and that part is ironic -- what was it, a year ago, Obama was *this close* to bombing Assad, now we bomb those fighting him. Fact remains though, ISIS is a regional threat and direct threat to the US, they're doing those beheadings, they're stoking international terrorism -- Australia was the first.

Those beheadings did it, that was it, ISIS is a direct threat it doesn't matter if they are enemy of an enemy.

Only problem with Assad is he's a dictator and he can't wrap up his own civil war and he used nerve gas, and he's shia and the sunni in the region want him gone.

It should be noted that the coalition is being responsible -- they are NOT bombing cities or villages or anything, just ISIS targets.

Also in the news, US forces went after an al queda sub group in Syria that had been planning an "imminent attack" on the US.

Was watching general wesley clark on CNN, he mentioned Ukraine and those dynamics with Russia backing Assad. *That would sure be a cold war tensions risk if Assad were to start shooting at US warplanes, and if Russia were connected to that*

[Withnail]

Only problem with Assad is he's a dictator and he can't wrap up his own civil war and he used nerve gas, and he's shia and the sunni in the region want him gone.

Assad isn't a Shia he's an Alawite, there is zero proof he used nerve gas, and so what if he's a dictator. He's hardly alone in that, in that region.

There is no way he would still be in power if he didnt have considerable support.

Was watching general wesley clark on CNN, he mentioned Ukraine and those dynamics with Russia backing Assad. *That would sure be a cold war tensions risk if Assad were to start shooting at US warplanes, and if Russia were connected to that*

Of course. How dare Assad defend Syria.

[Sixstrings]

What the UK government says or does is of course irrelevant, since it's just a US puppet regime.

Christ, you are depressing.

EDIT: rewrite for more brevity. What do you suggest be done, is there ever a reason to use military force for anything.

Do you think ISIS is a problem and has to be stopped, or not?

And what is your angle? Is it just nebulous "anti-american?" Do you know enough about realpolitik and how the world works, that yes the West needs middle eastern oil, and yes we have allies because of that, and no you can't just let those places spin off and somebody else dominate them -- an enemy, maybe.

Do you know about trade, and interconnected banking.

Do you understand that the US has arab allies but must also always defend Israel, or do you not give a sh*t and Israel can just disappear?

I already know you don't care about what Ukrainians want.

What is it that you think, that a UK can just be isolationist and somehow totally walled off and not engaged in the world and it would all work out?

[Withnail]

Just say what you think, other than just constant criticism, without any views on what to do.

The US should stop committing acts of terrorism and supporting terrorism world wide.

It should also stop arming dictatorships and stop destabilising other countries.

It should stop making laughable claims it is being militarily 'threatened' by rag rag militias many thousands of miles away.

If there are terrorist threats such as hijacking airliners or bombs, they should be tackled using the police such as the FBI.

It should pay compensation to the families of the millions it has killed, mutilated and poisoned world wide.

It should clean up all the depleted uranium, land mines, unexploded cluster bombs and Agent Orange it has scattered in former war zones.

It should return the billions it stole from Iraq following its invasion and rebuild everything it destroyed during that invasion.


Do these things, and I, personally, will sing The Star Spangled Banner while wearing an Uncle Sam hat.

[Sixstrings]

The US should stop committing acts of terrorism and supporting terrorism world wide.

I'm not aware of any of those. US hasn't sent masked gunmen anywhere, or annexed anything. What are you referring to.

It should also stop arming dictatorships and stop destabilising other countries.

That was the cold war, to compete against the USSR and keep the planet from going communist Red, to defeat communism.

Lately -- the West doesn't do that much, that's the fact. Egypt had a arab spring. We eventually withdrew support from the military leadership and they turned to Russia for a no strings attached arms deal. So now, it's Russia backing a dictator.

It should pay compensation to the families of the millions it has killed, mutilated and poisoned world wide.

Yeah and I want a check for what my ancestors suffered under the British Empire.

It should clean up all the depleted uranium, land mines, unexploded cluster bombs and Agent Orange it has scattered in former war zones.

That was to fight the cold war. Would you rather the USSR had won? I mean, seriously here, you and others on this forum act like the cold war happened in a vacuum.

That it wasn't a life and death struggle against a truly evil system of gulags and *soul crushing communism* and secret stazi police and everyone standing in a proletariat grocery store #23432 waiting in line for bread when there is no bread.

I was watching some pope news the other day, on his youtube channel. He recently visited Albania. He listened to the old priests and nuns that went through *hell* from the communists. (not sure who did all that to them, was it the soviets, I don't know)

The Pope said he had no idea it had been so bad, in Albania.

That's what the Cold War was about, and yes the US and Europe and UK had to fight some fire with fire, against the USSR. Would you rather the USSR had won that?

And now in 2014, do you have any concerns at all about China coming to dominate the world, and the new hard right dictatorial Russia, and what that means for human rights and freedom? You really think atlas can shrug and other empires rise and it will all just be okay? Under their enlightened leadership?

EDIT: and more on topic to this thread.. what about this ISIS.. would you really just want to see nothing done and watch a radical pan-sunni pan-arab jihadi caliphate develop?

Yes withnail, I'm a bit of a neocon, but you know what -- history proves you need to be proactive if you can be. A good defense is a good offense. Prevent the problem before it happens. Stop a Hitler when you can, early, then you don't have a WWII. This is real politik, containment of opposing powers, it's just how it is and it's history and things don't change.

The world order, post WWII and post cold war, has been the US dollar and globalism and trade and economic interdependence. Which Russia right now is tearing itself away from.

If the anglo / euro Atlas shrugs then other empires will just rise and dominate, and you may have much more to complain about, from them.

[Withnail]

The US should stop committing acts of terrorism and supporting terrorism world wide.

I'm not aware of any of those. US hasn't sent masked gunmen anywhere, or annexed anything. What are you referring to.

The dictionary definition of terrorism makes no reference to masked gunmen. It does refer to the use or threat of force to achieve political change. Regime change, if you like.

But actually the USA was convicted of terrorist acts even by your childish definition at the ICJ, for its actions in Nicaragua.

It should also stop arming dictatorships and stop destabilising other countries.

That was the cold war, to compete against the USSR and keep the planet from going communist Red. to defeat communism.

You are aware you arm Saudia Arabia today, aren't you?

It should clean up all the depleted uranium, land mines, unexploded cluster bombs and Agent Orange it has scattered in former war zones.

That was to fight the cold war. Would you rather the USSR had won? I mean, seriously here, you and others on this forum act like the cold war happened in a vacuum.

I would rather the US did not murder and poison people in other countries. And I would like it to clean up the mess it left.

And the Cold War was over before the US started poisoning people with depleted uranium.

[Sixstrings]

US Navy releases some videos of strike against ISIL:

USS Philippine Sea launches Tomahawk Land Attack Missiles to combat ISIL

ARABIAN GULF (Sept. 23, 2014) The guided-missile cruiser USS Philippine Sea (CG 58) launches Tomahawk Land-Attack Missiles (TLAM) against ISIL targets.

Philippine Sea is deployed as part of the USS George H.W. Bush (CVN 77) Carrier Strike Group supporting maritime security operations and theater security cooperation efforts in the U.S. 5th Fleet area of responsibility.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a-d67lJfdk

USS Arleigh Burke launches Tomahawk Land Attack Missiles to combat ISIL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9034BawdX4&list=UUKuSaHewQKWjR2wFuqfkMEA

U.S. Navy F/A-18 Hornets and EA-6B Prowlers fly sorties against ISIL in Syria
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE_TQj6A3yg&list=UUKuSaHewQKWjR2wFuqfkMEA

P.S. Sheesh I'm behind the times, looking at this navy youtube channel I didn't even know this but apparently they've got LASER weapons now :

The U.S. Navy has unveiled a futuristic new ship mounted infrared laser weapon that officials say could be used to shoot down drones and disable other ships, all without significant costs for ammunition.

The Navy said it intends to deploy the weapon, the Laser Weapons System (LaWS), to the Persian Gulf area in 2014 in what some are saying is a response to Iran's ongoing development of a fleet of drones.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMfYUyrKRng

Here's a video of a X-47B drone carrier landing:

X-47B Completes First Carrier-based Arrested Landing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPaH8CCtRVU&list=UUKuSaHewQKWjR2wFuqfkMEA

[Withnail]

US Navy releasing some videos on their youtube channel:

USS Philippine Sea launches Tomahawk Land Attack Missiles to combat ISIL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a-d67lJfdk

whoopee doo.

another empty building bites the dust.

I guess we don't need to ask if you've ever served your country yourself, 'Six Strings'.

[Sixstrings]

another empty building bites the dust.

Well for one thing, they destroyed that AQ subgroup's weapons factory and their training ground. CNN says they were planning an imminent attack on the US.

150 strikes in total, and from what the teevee says it will be day and night and ongoing indefinitely.

I guess we don't need to ask if you've ever served your country yourself, 'Six Strings'.

Almost joined the navy once, many moons ago. Got a perfect score on the verbal / communication, and I'm horrible at algebra and such. I wound up getting a better paying civilian job instead.

Have you ever served? Does it matter? I've had some family in the navy, on aircraft carriers.

Withnail can you go easy on me, you're going to give me an ulcer.

Detente -- I'll tone it down, ok?

[Withnail]

Almost joined the navy once, many moons ago. Got a perfect score on the verbal / communication, and I'm horrible at algebra and such. I wound up getting a better paying civilian job instead.

Have you ever served? Does it matter? I've had some family in the navy, on aircraft carriers.

Withnail can you go easy on me, you're going to give me an ulcer.

Detente -- I'll tone it down, ok?

I'm not the one drooling over videos of US missile launches.

It's being reported civilians have been killed already, including three children.

[Sixstrings]

I'm not the one drooling over videos of US missile launches.

It's being reported civilians have been killed already, including three children.

I don't know what the answer is, withnail. Yes war is horrible. Worse thing about the Iraq war is if the lefty sources on that are right -- that a million Iraqis died, because of that, most of it indirectly. But look at Syria right now. Even if you do nothing, things get to be a mess. Something like 3 million refugees.

Sometimes military force can prevent war. Sometimes war is necessary, if people want their independence badly enough and some other nation won't let them go. What's the answer? You can't just let the world spin out of control and wars rage and let terrorists have their training camps and weapons factories.

It would be nice to be pacifist and buddhist, but could Tibet fend off China? No, it got annexed. Look all through human history -- it is constant warfare.

Yes I'm a military buff and military history buff and strategy buff. And looking on youtube here, Jesus there are a gazillion military videos on there holy cow. We all grew up playing GI Joes and war, when we were kids, didn't we? Every tribe has its warriors, seems to come naturally to humanity.

The reality of it though -- you're right, I'm not a vet. Looking at Ukraine videos I clicked this one from that VICE documentary news channel and *gross* it was graphic. (they seem objective, both sides) But anyhow this one was about a Kiev column that got hit, and there were dead and it was graphic and I don't want to see that.

So yes, that's the reality of war. It's horrible.

But what do you do, when there is a jihadi psycho caliphate growing and threatening the whole region. The 5 sunni nations and the US get together and make a coalition, that's what they're doing.

What's the answer? Nations must defend themselves, it can't be mad max chaos just let anything happen.

There are a gazillion military videos on youtube, good lord, laser weapons and now robots in the army with legs that can run up to 28mph. All these drones now, and more to come.

Random stuff like this, I didn't even know a c130 can just land on grass:

US Air Force C-130 Grass Landings & Takeoffs in Poland
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVdtQOyDWkE

Withnail -- it would be far better if the globalist new world order could just continue, everyone interlinked by trade and central banking, and that way nobody can go to war with anyone -- not massive wars, anyway.

China is still linked in this globalist system, that ensures world peace, but Russia is purposely shaking that up and pulling itself out of that, and that's dangerous.

(I'm not drooling over this air war, but I AM GLAD to see a strong response to ISIS -- it's a rough world, we can't be weak, that's dangerous, we have to protect ourselves and paper tigers get chewed up. If we get hit we have to hit back -- that's just how it goes -- but I do see that other side too and innocent casualties are horrible, and ground war is horrible.

I don't know what the perfect answer is, but I do know if Israelis weren't tough then Israel wouldn't exist, etc. If Ukrainians don't fight for independence, then they may never have it, etc. And if the US doesn't hit back when it's hit, then we'll just get hit more and eventually there's a big massive war out of it.

I get your points, I know how many died in Iraq, yet I wouldn't ever want to live in the Jimmy Carter years either, sometimes pacifism is dangerous.

What about the Falklands? Should the UK have just let Argentina have it, because war is so horrible?)