[Ibon]

What I am also saying is allow this creative process to stand on its own feet, not to be anchored in the illusion that if TSHTF you can actually better your odds all that much.

That is one point that I totally disagree with.
I'm an old Marine, and we are taught from day one that proper training and preparation will affect your chances of survival in a cluster-f**k situation.
Individually, no one is guaranteed survival in a firefight. It is all about luck when the s**t starts flying. But the ones who are mentally and physically prepared, and who have taken care of their equipment and weapons, will have a much better chance than those who haven't.
If you don't prepare, you die easy.
It may just be my age, but I look at the world to come as a battle, not just a "accept whatever comes with an interested look on my face" type situation.

This was classic warrior rhetoric, no doubt with some merit, but I hear this kind of glory rhetoric being spewed far to often, not because of it's merit as you are stating it, but rather as an over arching justification to embrace survival mode. You may have marine training Hawkcreek just as I spent years deep in the wilderness doing canoe trips, some of which were 600km long, so yeah, I hear you. What I see often though is boredom using this kind of warror rhetoric to prop up this cartoon version of survival, me against the machine. When this is your justification good luck. Again my point is, have a passion for doing what you are doing for its own sake. If it's playing survival Rambo against a dysfunctional society then I want you to imagine for a moment living in a community of like minded folks. I would not want any part of it. We are here because we love it here, in this moment, now. not because of some survival issues we have with BAU.

Now tell me, what percentage of the doomstead dudes out there fill their heads with this kind of silly warrior rhetoric? How many are doing it because they deeply love the outdoors, nature, wilderness, or just the joy of tinkering with stuff McGuiver style. It goes without saying whose company I prefer.

Rodent in a hole mentality lies beneath alot of that Rambo rhetoric. Fear and distrust. I am not saying that's you, but it sure encompasses a big percentage of the survival genre these days.

[Hawkcreek]

Actually, I wasn't trying to spew warrior rhetoric, I was just amplifying my earlier statements about preparation being a form of insurance.
I have created a well-stocked refuge for when it is ever needed, but it is not something I did out of a passion for doing it. It is just a form of insurance.
My passions are traveling, good coffee, good bookstores (Powells in Portland is my favorite), motorcycle trips, and photography.
But ---- in my world you take care of responsibilities first, and then do the fun stuff.
My hilltop refuge is my gift to my kids and grandkids. That is complete, and I concentrate on the fun stuff.
I often hear that preparations are a waste of time and resources, and only Rambo nuts take part in them, but I believe that a warrior mentality is a survival mentality. The macho games that men play didn't evolve out of nothing. It was a tool for survival. We have been in relative peace for so long that many consider that tool to be outdated and useless, but if REAL hard times come again, many will re-consider, in my opinion.
You can prepare for life, or you can just take it as it comes, with a passion only for doing what feels like fun.
All choices, all with different probable outcomes if things turn bad.

[onlooker]

Interesting way to frame the existential drama that we humans find ourselves in. As Rockman stated this is not a war but a collective suicide. It is too late to avert extreme consequences. About the least worse outcome is external agency putting an immediate halt to industrial civilization since I do not see us voluntarily doing so. Obviously this outcome itself would be catastrophic but at least we may then maintain some planetary vitality that would permit higher life forms like ourselves to continue to inhabit this planet.

[ennui2]

Of course you believe that. It's part of your egotistical triumphalism that you're wiser than everyone else and will make it through the bottleneck.

[onlooker]

onlooker, from previous discussion we've had, I have to assume the existential drama depends on runaway global warming, ie that life will be wiped out in its entirety? Is that correct? If so, I don't share your assumption and believe that many lucky humans will prevail. Perhaps not in the accustomed comfort but certainly with good health. I will be one of those.

P, not just GW but the general fecundity of the Earth is being diminished it seems more every day. To you and all here who are in a prepping mode good for you. However, I tend to agree with Ibon that the nature of the havoc and mayhem headed towards all humanity is is too unpredictable and great to assure yourself or your progeny any substantive safety and security. Though your situation Pete has promising attributes. I prefer thus to focus on the macro level of humanity as a whole and the prospects of our species not only surviving but having a worthwhile future. I think all this is very open to speculation

[Hawkcreek]

Cool phrase - egotistical triumphalism - I read a lot, and I have never seen or heard it before.
That kind of stuff is part of why I keep coming back to this low-life tavern.

[Newfie]

Interesting stuff. I find I agree with a lot of what is said, if you look at taking the positive and pitching the negative.

Training for survival, being prepared is just basic simple stuff. Even some government agencies promote the basics: water, food, heat, an escape and regroup plan. I put a diesel generator in the house so that should the electricity go out I can run the oil fired stove and circulate the warm air. That's a prep.

And yeah, Ibon is correct that we are using BAU to prep for the future. Why not? Why is that bad?

I've been blessed with the idea of sailing and also of having family roots in Newfoundland. I also had a bit of spare change where I bought some land in Nova Scotia. Each of those things give me joy. Each of those things has some prepper utility. Each of those things can be passed onto my kids should they decide to make use of it.

So I don't think I have a dog in this fight because for me things have just sorta worked out so I can have my cake and eat it too.

Now, I could have taken a different route, bought some stateside land and tried to do something like what Pops did. But I don't think I would enjoy that as much. And I'm too damn old and cranky to be a dirt farmer. And I don't like the idea of shooting people, and less of getting shot. So all the land based prepper solutions just didn't work for me.

Not really trying to make much of a point, just stating where I'm at.

[Hawkcreek]

Thats funny. Getting shot at doesn't bother me too much.
But the ocean has always scared the hell out of me.

[dohboi]

Ibon wrote: "1 billionaire consumes far less than 1 thousand millionaires in aggregate."

Well, that's a claim, not a fact, unless you can support it. Detailed ecological footprint discussions that I've seen say that the best rough estimate of a person's impact is their wealth/income.

Just think about the emissions that a private jet produces as one example of how much more emissions one rich person can produce than lots and lots of middle class or working class people can.

Newf also proclaims a supposition as fact--there is no universal law that says eliminating (by taking away their wealth) the top 10% (or whatever level) will just generate a new elite that consumes at that same high rate and at that level of inequality.

Here's some stats for folks to chew on: https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files ... Wealth.pdf

(ETA: Note that I am picking the places where we happen to disagree. But I also agree with much of what has been said by Ibon, Newf, and others here.)

[Newfie]

Doh,

For a start try reading Diamonds "The World Before Yesterday". (At least that's close). He describes pretty well the role the elite play in our human societies. It strikes me as the best referenced of all his books.

[careinke]

What a great thread. I am heartened by the number of you who have implemented adaptation strategies to help mitigate the present and future chaos. Ethically, it is the right thing to take responsibility for yourself and your children, both in the present and the future. Not only does it enrich your life, it also reduces the burden of the government to provide for you.

Personally, I feel our family would be able, if needed, to live off grid, with no (man made) external support, indefinitely. We have food, water, shelter, tools, energy, infrastructure and knowledge all on site, with the ability to maintain or replace it all.

Do I think it would ever actually come to that? Not at all, we know too many locals we can trade with to enrich our lives (and diets). Going local whenever possible is great insurance against personal collapse.

We have been working/enjoying the homestead for 12 years now and things are finally really starting to kick in. We produce more food than we can harvest/use (which the worms, chickens, and wildlife enjoy). Our fruit trees, berry bushes, perennial vegetables, herbs, mushrooms, and self seeding plants are established and producing. We have four sources of water, and a thriving saltwater beach with: clams, muscles, oysters, crab, fish, ducks, seals, otters, seaweed, wild asparagus and other assorted edibles. Most of the property is certified as sustainable forest land (FSC), and provides a variety of forest products to us including: lumber, fuel, a clean watershed for the wells, berries, mushrooms, wildlife refuge, and awesome walks.

We have no debt, except a car payment, at zero percent interest which will be paid off next year. We have four streams of passive income: Military retirement, My SS, My wife's SS, and wheat farm rentals from some property in Oregon. Our only "mandatory" expense is the property taxes, which are covered by the farm rental money, and if that fell through, my tax return, or as a last ditch effort, savings.

As a result my net cash flow, (living rather comfortably I might add), is about +$2,000 per month, (since my SS started this April). We invest that surplus into homestead projects, making our life better and even more resilient. Right now I'm putting in a permeant 8' fence around my zone 1 and 2 gardens. Next up on the list will be an outdoor kitchen. I see no reason to risk the extra money in the traditional stocks, bonds, or other "traditional" investments. The risks appear to high and the rewards to small unless you have a spare million or two lying around.

Here in the PNW land prices are rising at an obviously unsustainable rate. Farm land is rising at an incredible 25% a year! We are seriously looking at selling our wheat lands because our profits will decrease as the property taxes increase. In addition, our sharecropper (and cousin), who happens to have taught at and holds a PHD in agricultural economics from Perdue, is well over 70. When he passes, I doubt we will do as well, with as little effort as now. Might be a good time to dump that property before this bubble bursts.

So my advise for the coming times:

1. Debt is cancer, kill it! (I borrowed that one)
2. Develop multiple sources of income, preferably passive.
3. Take care of yourself and family first, so you are not a burden on others.
4. Live below your means and "invest" the surplus in the future.
5. Try and improve not degrade the earth.
6. Always try and reduce your dependence on the BAU system (it's going away soon).
7. Enjoy life.

[ennui2]

"We have four streams of passive income: Military retirement, My SS, My wife's SS, and wheat farm rentals from some property in Oregon."

How well could you live without these things? Because they'll be gone in a SHTF scenario, as well as health-insurance and access to first-rate hospitals.

Seems to be the most common demographic feature of off-grid doomers is retirement. The luxury of retirement is being able to spend every day doing homesteading tasks. But for those of working age, you get a lot more bang for your buck being a desk-jockey and exchanging your pay for necessities.

[GHung]

Ennui said; "How well could you live without these things? Because they'll be gone in a SHTF scenario, as well as health-insurance and access to first-rate hospitals."

In a SHTF scenario, most of these things will be gone (or changing dramatically) for just about everyone. That's the point of having a Plan B mentality while still keeping a foot in a Plan A world; something Greer and others have suggested. My wife still works a full time job she likes with modest benefits, and, due to our frugal Plan B lifestyle, that income goes much farther, some even into savings, while keeping our overall taxable income to a much lower level. There's a point where the income/lifestyle curve is such that less is more, and our fall-back position is one we're already living.

Those of you whose fall-back positions are mostly financial will be in the same boat as most everyone else who'll find their financialised fall-back positions going POOF. Hard to shoot holes in our Plan B, but the Ennuis of the world keep trying. It's about knowing the difference in real wealth (capital) and faux wealth which is utterly reliant upon things continuing pretty much as they are; promises that won't be kept.

[onlooker]

Yes, it is tough to criticize the mentality of preppers here. They are balancing the present with the future. And as Ibon stated it is about choosing this lifestyle as precisely that a lifestyle that brings tangible benefits ie. cost savings and peace of mind in the present while being the preparation for the soon to be future. I personally have digested much of the general information here also with an eye on the future. Hard to know the exact timing of when it will no longer be possible to prepare adequately but I understand what others say that it is getting close as being really prepared for the Collapse involves quite a bit of time and some resources. I must confess that I believe in selecting a route whereby I and my wife can be productive members of a Community that is a Resilient/Transition Community. Being productive involves having skills worth having in this approaching future. Having money per say will give one NO advantage expect as a means to bridge the gap between this version of the world now and the one to come

[Ibon]

Actually, I wasn't trying to spew warrior rhetoric, I was just amplifying my earlier statements about preparation being a form of insurance.
I have created a well-stocked refuge for when it is ever needed, but it is not something I did out of a passion for doing it. It is just a form of insurance.
My passions are traveling, good coffee, good bookstores (Powells in Portland is my favorite), motorcycle trips, and photography.
But ---- in my world you take care of responsibilities first, and then do the fun stuff.
My hilltop refuge is my gift to my kids and grandkids. That is complete, and I concentrate on the fun stuff.
I often hear that preparations are a waste of time and resources, and only Rambo nuts take part in them, but I believe that a warrior mentality is a survival mentality. The macho games that men play didn't evolve out of nothing. It was a tool for survival. We have been in relative peace for so long that many consider that tool to be outdated and useless, but if REAL hard times come again, many will re-consider, in my opinion.
You can prepare for life, or you can just take it as it comes, with a passion only for doing what feels like fun.
All choices, all with different probable outcomes if things turn bad.

I think what I was getting at was more about motive than the actual merits. There is no doubt about the merits of preparing and how this is an insurance as you stated. The two gentlemen that came to visit me the other day who are setting up small acreage lots to sell as a safe secure haven for hard times coming. We went into the subject of how to market their project and who their ideal future neighbor's would be. This invariably got us into the dialogue of the whole survival genre and how their loose community of survivalists will one day inter act. There are several pathways that lead one to this survivalist orientation but there are some common elements. This is also relevant to peak oil folks as well so I will delve a little bit deeper into the point I have been trying to make on my recent posts.

I think many of us here can relate that the road that takes you down this survivalist path started at some point in your past when you recognized the vulnerability of the status quo. As an ecologist and wilderness traveler this came to me already 40 years ago. What went along with this realization from the beginning was not only that the status quo was vulnerable and short lived but even more important that the lives being lived by those chained to it were not worth living. Too many compromises were made for the material benefits received. When you go down the consumer dream pathway acquiring material objects becomes a compensation for a life that is diminished, chained to unfulfilling work, mortgages, car loans, living in artificial landscapes and being disconnected from self reliance and resourcefulness. Trapped in a golden cage. Unfulfilled on some elemental level you go out and buy a bigger house or car as a compensation which only strengthens the bars of the golden cage. Dependency grows along with debt and then you are really stuck. Self reliance gets reduced where ones mechanical ability atrophies to the point that doing anything beyond changing a light bulb becomes too difficult. You feel dependent then on a lifestyle that is deeply unfulfilling. My personal story is I went from wilderness expeditions to the world of commerce in my 30's. Had a family and lived in suburban south florida from where I traveled in Latin America. Those decades we stored nuts but I was slowly going nuts seeing the level of dysfunction in the lives of the folks around me. I played the game, bought my time, and as soon as we were able to exit we did.

Survivalists therefore have a fundamental orientation with the status quo which is to reject it. You recognize the system is sick, the participants are weak, and you want no part of it. This goes on for years and years, as you browse the news feeds all the events are interpreted through this lens of seeing the status quo as teetering on the brink; financial collapse, climate change, peak oil, pandemics, crop failures, terrorism, immigrants, ecological overshoot, chemical food additives, crime, racial conflict, etc. etc. etc.

When your orientation to the status quo is focused through this lens it is easy to forget that this vast global structure of goods and services is embedded with assets that are 100 years in the making and that in spite of all the fools out there living this life, it is propping up a structure that is supporting all of us. The survivalist, having rejected the status quo, is hard pressed to then recognize his level of dependence on it. This is the reason why most survivalists have a blind spot, failing to recognize their dependency on the status quo, they then over estimate their ability to survive crisis if collapse would reach the epic proportions one obsesses over.

Take a moment and go back a few generations to your great great grandfather who most likely lived a life rich in resourcefulness, trade skills, self reliance, ability to fix things. He was surrounded by like minded individuals. He had attributes that you aspire to in terms of preparation and surviving. But there is one important difference between your great great grandfather and yourself. He was not rejecting the status quo, his orientation was not framed on a society that he viewed on the brink of collapse.

That is what I am trying to remind everyone about in reference to the degree of prepping and survival, that it should not be framed from the defensive position of a world about to fall apart, or even from rejecting society at large, but rather, similar to your great great grandfather, your orientation is that your self reliance stands on its own merits, the fulfillment this gives you, the way this enriches your life, the way this enhances well being.

When your lifestyle is based on a rejection of the status quo then your still in relationship to it. When your lifestyle is rich and creative then the status quo becomes deeply irrelevant. Then your orientation stands on its own merits without being framed by all that is going wrong around you. That is actually the deepest way to reject the status quo......when it no longer frames your world view.

This is the point I have been trying to get across. It is not just living in the moment and forgetting about the insurance that prepping gives you. It is about living your life so creatively that you are no longer in relationship with that which you reject. All of us have to render into Caesar and we all have to function in a dysfunctional society. A wise spiritual leader once framed it quite simply.
"Be in it but not of it" Many survivalists are of it, they are still in relationship to the status quo and still framing their world view based on their daily interpretation that collapse is just around the corner. It is a deeply flawed orientation and ironically it contributes to the same diminished life that they claim to be rejecting. Do you want an obsessive neighbor who only whines about things about to fall apart and whose defensive “rodent in a hole” orientation revolves around this……this is what I asked the two dudes who came up here who are wanting to market their safe haven piece of property.

We have no guests here at the moment, this is our favorite time of year, silent, the howler monkeys for some reason are going bonkers in the back ground.

[Newfie]

We happen to own a cabin between my grand fathers house and my great grand fathers house. They were rich in nothing. The town got a road in -952 and electricity in 1965. There were cod and squid. But prices were low. There was no money, no cash economy. All the fish went to the merchant, all staples came from the merchant. They never had a positive balance at the end of the year. The whole island wa like that, abject poverty.

They grew their food, what they could. Mostly root vegetables. They had horses, and cows, and chickens, and sheep. They had lots of kids. Most had TB.

And with all that they were deeply rooted in and a part of the industrial society and international trade. The salt fish was shipped overseas and to the caribbean. They received salt (necessary to cure fish), flour, mollassas, and manufactured goods.

So even in that relatively primitively society they were rooted in industrialization and trade.

When the SHTF it MAY be that trade, local trade, becomes important again. It may be that the guy who can haul some food stuffs from here to there is in a good position. I don't know, too many variables to know.

[Ibon]

But for those of working age, you get a lot more bang for your buck being a desk-jockey and exchanging your pay for necessities.

I was there Ennui. For over 20 years in the world of commerce. Never a single day went by that I wasn't acutely aware of the dysfunctional nature of the status quo. We lived very frugal lives, saved quite a bit of money. We were singularly focused to store enough nuts to one day exist. I coped during those years by having an immense garden in my back yard, I turned my little suburban property into a wildlife haven to the dismay of my neighbors with monoculture lawns, I had a flats boat and escaped into the Everglades and took my family on canoe and camping trips with every available spare minute. We never bought a new car, always used, the homes we owned during those 20 years were paid off as quickly as possible.

This orientation paid off. But it was singular and we were committed.

What this means is you can be in the world of commerce while on a deeper level you are even more embedded in preparing.
(be in it but not of it)

It's up to you.

I want to prod you bit, confront you gently...... the charge you get around Pstarr and others is less about your perception about their over confidence or arrogance or whatever and much more about your internal conflict regarding this subject. You are wrestling with this. That's ok. Don't give up.

[GHung]

Ibon said; "I think many of us here can relate that the road that takes you down this survivalist path started at some point in your past when you recognized the vulnerability of the status quo."

My survivalist path was never so much about surviving the future collapse of the status quo; it's ultimate demise. It has always been, for the most part, about surviving the status quo itself; the current paradigm which brought me no joy. Success never felt successful. Quite the contrary in a world where creativity is largely judged only by its marketability. At some point I decided it was pointless, fitting into a society I had very little respect for; a society that was clearly killing itself and its habitat, where things that are most valued have no real lasting value at all. The vast majority of our resources are squandered on things that aren't worthy of preservation, and virtually all of our greatest assets become liabilities to future generations. What kind of person wants to be all-in on that?

That's the part I'm trying to survive. The future is now.

[Ibon]

Ibon said; "I think many of us here can relate that the road that takes you down this survivalist path started at some point in your past when you recognized the vulnerability of the status quo."

My survivalist path was never so much about surviving the future collapse of the status quo; it's ultimate demise. It has always been, for the most part, about surviving the status quo itself; the current paradigm which brought me no joy. Success never felt successful. Quite the contrary in a world where creativity is largely judged only by its marketability. At some point I decided it was pointless, fitting into a society I had very little respect for; a society that was clearly killing itself and its habitat, where things that are most valued have no real lasting value at all. The vast majority of our resources are squandered on things that aren't worthy of preservation, and virtually all of our greatest assets become liabilities to future generations. What kind of person wants to be all-in on that?

That's the part I'm trying to survive. The future is now.

That was beautifully said and I resonate completely with this.

[ennui2]

Ttat disgusting lifestyle ain't over yet. So keep stewing in your disgust.