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Nicaragua Canal

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Re: Mega-projects and Peak Oil: Nicaragua Canal

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 21 Nov 2014, 14:36:43

BobInget wrote:I've only been in Nicaragua a few weeks, half the time, goofing off on the beach. From a tiny sample of Nica's interviewed, most folks here seem
in favor of the canal project. Officials claim 87% approval.
The problem, like with Keystone XL, no one is asking poor substance farmers whose land will be 'taken'.
These folks, I'm told by folks on the Left (Sandinistas) and Right, (former contras) are prepared to fight to hold on to their lands.

Considerable environmental damage will undoubtedly occur to Lake Nicaragua, the largest fresh water containment in Central America.
Salt water intrusion along the canal's path ruins farmland.
I hope financing falls through. If not, there will be yet another civil war.


Unless they are building it as a sea level canal saltwater intrusion should not be much of a problem. The canal is supposed to be 90 feet deep to handle the largest freighters. Lake Nicaragua surface is 107 feet above sea level and its deepest point is 22 feet above sea level. If the Canal is sea level all the way Lake Nicaragua will drain completely into the sea. I suspect they will have lock structures on both ends and the canal will be filled with fresh water from the lake and rivers that feed into the lake. Based on the geography probably three locks on each end with the Pacific locks all close together and the Atlantic locks at the lake shore, sea shore and somewhere in the middle.

With modern equipment making a sea level canal would not be all that difficult, but it would drain a lot of fresh water sources into the sea. As is the canal route across the lake bottom will require a lot of dredging to make the whole distance 90 feet deep. I wonder what they plan to do with all that rich silt they will have to be dredging from the lake?
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Re: Mega-projects and Peak Oil: Nicaragua Canal

Unread postby Synapsid » Fri 21 Nov 2014, 16:44:24

Tanada,

They'd need locks anyway for at least two reasons: 1) at the Panama Canal as an example, the Pacific averages higher than the Atlantic so picture to yourself the resulting current without locks: 2) there are sea snakes along the Pacific coast and none in the Caribbean with its tourist industry, and sea snakes are wonderfully venomous. Caribbean fishermen and tourists would learn to adjust but the, er, cost would be high.
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Re: Mega-projects and Peak Oil: Nicaragua Canal

Unread postby GHung » Fri 21 Nov 2014, 16:50:16

Tanada: "I wonder what they plan to do with all that rich silt they will have to be dredging from the lake?"

Depends on what it's 'rich' in. Seems they've been using Lake Nicaragua as a cesspool for decades, even though it's Nicaragua's primary source for fresh water:

In the past 37 years, considerable concern has been expressed about the ecological condition of Lake Nicaragua. In 1981 the Nicaraguan Institute of Natural Resources and the Environment (IRENA) conducted an environmental assessment study and found that half of the water sources sampled were seriously polluted by sewage. It was found that 32 tons (70,000 pounds) of raw sewage were being released into Lake Nicaragua daily. Industry located along the lake's shore had been dumping effluent for an extended period of time. Pennwalt Chemical Corporation [AKA: Total S.A. - petrochemicals] was found to be the worst polluter. Nicaragua's economic situation has hampered the building of treatment facilities nationwide (see: Water supply and sanitation in Nicaragua).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Nica ... ke_ecology

Bringing thousands of ships through can't help. Besides pollutants, there's the risk of invasive species (Zebra mussels, etc). They already have a problem with talapia aquaculture fouling things up and displacing native species.

And then there's the ongoing drought. How much water will the canal system consume? Seems like just another case of natural systems being stressed to their collapsing point; not that that matters to people who are all in for globalism. Besides, what's a little e. coli and cholera when there's billions to be made, eh?
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Re: Mega-projects and Peak Oil: Nicaragua Canal

Unread postby GHung » Fri 21 Nov 2014, 17:09:30

Synapsid - ah, sea snakes... I'm surprised they aren't on the Atlantic side already. Mean little bastards. When I was a skimmer (surface sailor), we used to make slingshots and shoot at them from the fantail over in the Red Sea and Gulfs. I once asked the ship's Corpsman what he had for sea snake bites and all he said was; "Morphine. Don't get bit."
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Re: Mega-projects and Peak Oil: Nicaragua Canal

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 21 Nov 2014, 17:51:38

Synapsid wrote:Tanada,

They'd need locks anyway for at least two reasons: 1) at the Panama Canal as an example, the Pacific averages higher than the Atlantic so picture to yourself the resulting current without locks: 2) there are sea snakes along the Pacific coast and none in the Caribbean with its tourist industry, and sea snakes are wonderfully venomous. Caribbean fishermen and tourists would learn to adjust but the, er, cost would be high.


The height difference is only significant at high and low tide. Many people are unaware that the Red Sea is about a meter higher than the Mediterranean Sea but neither has much in the way of tidal effects. As a result at high tide in the Mediterranean the current flows south through the Suez canal while at all other times it flows north. Red Sea life forms have long since invaded the western end of the Mediterranean as a result.

Anyone know what the tide peaks ay along the Nicaraguan coast?
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Re: Mega-projects and Peak Oil: Nicaragua Canal

Unread postby Synapsid » Fri 21 Nov 2014, 18:44:10

GHung,

They are indeed admirable animals. As to reaching the Atlantic, the range of some in the Indian Ocean is right to the southern tip of Africa so all they have to do is round the Cape. There's a pretty cold current off SW Africa; maybe that's had a role in preventing the invasion, or maybe it's just a matter of time.

Have to admire a critter that sheds its skin to get rid of barnacles.
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Re: Mega-projects and Peak Oil: Nicaragua Canal

Unread postby wildbourgman » Sun 23 Nov 2014, 21:38:03

If anything stops this canal it won't be zebra mussels, snakes, saltwater intrusion or any other environmental concern. It's the Chinese and Nicaraguan oligarchs and bankers that will decide whether this gets done or not. Now if this were the United states that would be a different story. Maybe Obama will make an executive order to stop this canal.

I don't think this is going to end well for Nicarguan farmers and any other group that depends on the lake.
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Nicaragua Canal

Unread postby jedrider » Sun 08 Feb 2015, 22:17:59

Nicaragua canal route: Atlantic-Pacific link unveiled

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-28206683

Appears that this project is moving on. Doesn't this appear like a foolish endeavor unless Capitalism will continue to flourish for at least 40 more years?? I figure 5-10 years to build the canal and at least 30 years to amortize the cost. If Capitalism is going to collapse anytime soon, this project will not be worth it. Nicaragua evidently needs the money and China thinks that the Panama canal will not be sufficient for the amount of trade it wishes to conduct.

That's pretty good if my children can count on 40 more years of BAU. No?

According to the next article, the contract is for 114 years and it is allowed to take 14 years to complete. Good. It may then never be used if peak oil really happens and shuts down the Cargo[ism] industry.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/in_the_race_to_replace_panama_a_canal_tears_nicaragua_apart_20150207
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Re: Nicaragua Canal

Unread postby GHung » Sun 08 Feb 2015, 22:47:12

Beside the desire to build stuff; ghost cities and such, the Chinese are probably thinking Venezuelan oil; Canadian maybe. Once they call in their US debt, we won't be able to afford much of that. Wouldn't that be rich; China thrives on Canadian oil pumped through the Keystone, buys it's own South American country on the side, and sells a bunch of plastic junk to Nicaraguans and Venezuelans, while US markets figure out how to pay off a couple of trillion in treasuries. Or not.

Didn't someone say Venezuela has the largest oil reserves on the planet? Nice little shortcut through Nicaragua to China.
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Re: Nicaragua Canal

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Mon 09 Feb 2015, 00:30:37

"Nice little shortcut through Nicaragua to China." And a shorter and very much cheaper route to ship Vz oil via pipeline acoss Columbia to the Pacific coast where it could be shipped directly to China. They've been trying to work out that deal for a while. I haven't seen an update in a while.
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Re: Nicaragua Canal

Unread postby Subjectivist » Mon 09 Feb 2015, 11:34:32

I am thinking the construction will be much quicker than most western observers expect. China doesn't fool around on these projects, once they start they go full out to get the job done.
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Re: Nicaragua Canal

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Mon 09 Feb 2015, 16:22:20

sub - From the little I've read much of the route already exists: it will use an existing large lake for a significant portion of the journey. Or are you talking about the pipeline? I think the big stumbling block there has been the politics and not the actual construction.
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Re: Nicaragua Canal

Unread postby Subjectivist » Mon 09 Feb 2015, 16:49:39

ROCKMAN wrote:sub - From the little I've read much of the route already exists: it will use an existing large lake for a significant portion of the journey. Or are you talking about the pipeline? I think the big stumbling block there has been the politics and not the actual construction.


I was thinking of the canal but it would be equally true of the pipeline. Just look how quickly the Chinese rail projects in Africa have been going, they are comparable to the U.S. transcontinental railroad built in the 1860's.
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Re: Nicaragua Canal

Unread postby sparky » Mon 09 Feb 2015, 17:15:27

.
Just a guess but one could think the Chinese are concerned about import of resources , plenty come from the South Atlantic , Brazil and South Africa ...etc. ....etc.
their access through the straights of Asia and onward are vulnerable to the good will of India with which they have a complicated relationship .
further it's not if it's Panama or Nicaragua , rather it's both with a bit of competition in a larger transit capability , so far Panama has a monopoly of sort and can squeeze the users , Chinese hate that when they are the sqeezed
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Re: Nicaragua Canal

Unread postby kublikhan » Mon 09 Feb 2015, 17:20:11

If it cost a buttload of money for a LNG tanker to transit the canal and waiting times are excessive, wouldn't it make more sense to just build a west coast LNG terminal for Asia bound cargo?

Australian Oil Co. Ltd. is leading a newly formed joint venture (JV) pursuing the development of a liquefied natural gas (LNG) export terminal on the U.S. West Coast. The JV is in negotiations to secure a site for the project.

Multiple projects have been proposed to export LNG from British Columbia. Additionally, two terminals have been proposed for the Oregon coast.
California Producer, Partners Considering West Coast LNG Terminal
The oil barrel is half-full.
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Re: Nicaragua Canal

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 09 Feb 2015, 18:28:53

And yet at this moment the Baltic Dry Index is at a 30 year low.

Iron ore is down to $68/ton from about $170/ton and oil is at about $60/bbl.

This seems counterintuitive to building a big new canal.

Short term vs. long term?

Just idiocy?
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Re: Nicaragua Canal

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 09 Feb 2015, 19:14:56

Newfie wrote:And yet at this moment the Baltic Dry Index is at a 30 year low.

Iron ore is down to $68/ton from about $170/ton and oil is at about $60/bbl.

This seems counterintuitive to building a big new canal.

Short term vs. long term?

Just idiocy?


What ever else you may say about China they have always been long term thinkers, planners and doers. The Great Wall took decades of hard core hand labor with animal power, and the more recent Three Gorges Dam was not built in a day.
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Re: Nicaragua Canal

Unread postby lpetrich » Sun 22 Feb 2015, 04:19:20

I am fluent in two languages: English and autotranslator. Google Translate has been most useful to me. I found out that one canal-deal protestors' sign stated

"Nicaragua is not for sale"

Shows what a bunch of capitalist roaders China has become.

Nicaraguan Canal and Development Project - Wikipedia has some details. Construction officially began on Dec. 22, 2014, and it should be done by 2020. The canal will run from Punta Gorda on the Atlantic Ocean to Brito on the Pacific Ocean, going through Lake Nicaragua. The east and west segments are 126.7 and 25.9 km long with the lake part being 106.8 km long. Both locks will be 3-chambered with the east and west ones being 13.7 and 14.5 km inland of their respective oceans. By comparison, the Panama Canal is 77.1 km long.

That article also has the locks' dimensions, which I will use for the ship clearance: Nicamax. Panamax - Wikipedia has some other ship clearances. Here's a table:

Length, Width (beam), Depth (draft), Height (air draft)

Nicamax: 520 m, 75 m, 27.6 m, (unknown)
Panamax: 294.31 m, 32.31 m, 12.04 m, 57.91 m
New Panamax: 366 m, 49 m, 15.2 m, 57.91 m
Seawaymax: 225.6 m, 23.8 m, 7.92 m, 35.5 m
Suezmax: (unlimited), 50 m, 20.1 m, 68 m
Malaccamax: 400 m, 59 m, 14.5 m, (unlimited)
Q-max: 345 m, 53.8 m, 12 m, 34.7 m
Chinamax: 360 m, 65 m, 24 m, (unlimited)

Q-max is for Liquefied Natural Gas ships at Qatar.
Seawaymax is for the St. Lawrence Seaway
Malaccamax is for the Strait of Malacca and nearby ports
Chinamax is for Chinese ports

So the Nicaragua Canal will beat most of its competition in capacity, and it will accommodate Chinamax-sized ships. These are now mostly coal and ore carriers, but some supertankers may eventually be built that large.
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Re: Nicaragua Canal

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 22 Feb 2015, 11:21:04

Interesting, I had not known of mama max.

But what is the purpose of a new canal if the new additional panama locks can fit a china Max? Is China upgrading port facilities also?

Surly at some point there is a limitation on the Increased efficiency Vs cost of infrastrucuture.
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Re: Nicaragua Canal

Unread postby lpetrich » Sun 22 Feb 2015, 15:48:57

The New Panamax clearance is still not as wide or as deep as the Chinamax clearance. Also, the Panama Canal has capacity problems. From Wikipedia's Panamax article, "Because the largest ships traveling in opposite directions cannot pass safely within the Culebra Cut, the canal effectively operates an alternating one-way system for these ships." Though that needs a "Citation needed", other sources agree.

The Culebra Cut is a channel dug through the mountains of central Panama. Digging it was a massive effort and a great engineering feat in its day.
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