[baldwincng]

It is often said, in error, that there is no real alternative to the internal combustion engine and petroleum based fuels. Well, take a look at the latest edition of NGV News from the UK Natural Gas Vehicle Association:

http://www.ngva.co.uk/index/fuseaction/ ... on_id/5193

The world has loads of natural gas that is no longer stranded due to the world's massive increase of LNG trade and its still being made (bio-gas is a significant and largely untapped resource), this can be used in a very efficient way to provide road transport.

In the latest dual fuel diesel engines - with 90% natural gas, 10% diesel - there is around a 20% reduction in GHG emissions compared to diesel. Forget the nonsense of converting natural gas to hydrogen - we can't afford the energy and CO2 cost of that. By all means have lots of windmills but use these to make electricity that was made by natural gas. Use the saved natural gas to power cars and trucks.....obvious really.

With oil at $65/bbl, Middle East countries are joining Germany and France and India and Brazil etc in introducing CNG programmes. For example, makes sense for Iran to export as much oil as possible and burn natural gas for vehicles. As a by product, this will dramaticaly reduce air poluution, as has happened in Delhi (see NGV News page 11)

Take a CNG internal combustion engine and add hybrid technology and we are sorted. Thank goodness it is being developed.

CNG for vehicles is obvious and inevitable and will buy some time to build nuclear power stations and insulate the loft.

[Devil]

Back to your vested interests, I see

[baldwincng]

Back to your vested interests, I see

Its my planet too....

Actually, I'm fed up reading about hydrogen nonsense as saviour for the planet and to avoid having to have anything to do with the 500 miles around Mecca. Its manifest nonsense and you and most people know it!

Its time natural gas asserted itself and we talked about sources of fuel and not ways of storing what fuel we have.

By the way, I see Cyprus may be getting LNG at last, good news for you, great news for local air quality too. Is this right? What are the plans for natural gas on Cyprus? What fuels will be cdisplaced?

In Uk, 1 LNG terminal has been completed, 2 more are half built, and there are plans for at least 3 more! We have to find something to do with all this gas.

[Devil]

Back to your vested interests, I see

Its my planet too....

Actually, I'm fed up reading about hydrogen nonsense as saviour for the planet and to avoid having to have anything to do with the 500 miles around Mecca. Its manifest nonsense and you and most people know it!

Its time natural gas asserted itself and we talked about sources of fuel and not ways of storing what fuel we have.

By the way, I see Cyprus may be getting LNG at last, good news for you, great news for local air quality too. Is this right? What are the plans for natural gas on Cyprus? What fuels will be cdisplaced?

In Uk, 1 LNG terminal has been completed, 2 more are half built, and there are plans for at least 3 more! We have to find something to do with all this gas.

Actually, it will be a sad day IF Cyprus goes for LNG, which is far from certain, as the country will be responsible for more greenhouse gas emissions than ever.

However, nothing is settled. There are two projects in course. One is a private consortium wanting to set up a LNG power station on a platform 3 miles offshore, close to a known and active fault line! I cannot imagine why they would wish to do it that way. The other is an EAC project for a mixed gas turbine/thermal LNG power station at Moni, with their own gas terminal. It may be many years before approval is granted for either (if ever). I would much prefer it if they went nuclear.

[aahala]

As a solution, this is pure folly.

Let x equal the remaining oil supplies and let y equal the remaining
natural gas.

If "c" is consumed in any given period, then the remaining total
oil and NG supplies will always equal x + y -c.

It doesn't matter how much of c was x or how much was y.

[baldwincng]

As a solution, this is pure folly.

Let x equal the remaining oil supplies and let y equal the remaining
natural gas.

If "c" is consumed in any given period, then the remaining total
oil and NG supplies will always equal x + y -c.

It doesn't matter how much of c was x or how much was y.

What does matter, crucially, is energy eficiency. Wasting valuable natural gas to make electricity to make hydrogen to run a vehicle is manifest nonsense when you can just burn natural gas in the vehicle. The planet must eek out what energy it has. Hydrogen as a fuel SHOULD BE ILLEGAL. All renewable electricity should be used to save and reduce fossil fuel consumption.

It is utter folly to waste a huge amount of energy to store energy as hydrogen.

[aahala]

baldwincng

I agree with you about efficiency. I didn't take your post as to be about
hydogren but rather about replacing petro with NG as a transportation fuel.

[vampyregirl]

www.ngvamerica.org
http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-sedan/civic-gx.aspx
What do you think of this technology? I think it has potential, especially as a suppliment to conventional fuel.

[Gerben]

I'm working in this business, so I'm not a neutral observer here.
But I think it has potential. It's cheap and it burns clean. The problem is that most current NGVs have a limited range. You could solve that, but then you would lose a significant amount of space. We are already seeing a large growth in the number of NGVs. Especially in Europe.
If I'm not mistaken then the only NGV model in the US is the Honda Civic. We have NGVs in Europe from brands like Opel (GM), Volkswagen, Mercedes, Citroen and Fiat (no Honda!). I think they should start making some more NGV models in the US for it to become a success.

[gasmando]

I too am interested in NGV.
The little research that I have done indicates that they are unavailable outside of California unless your a gov't entity trying to buy a fleet.
My guess is that the big oil lobby does not want states to allow the average citizen the ability to purchase these things because you can refuel in your garage. This means you won't be buying that candy bar, big gulp & lottery tickets when you fill up in your garage....

[emersonbiggins]

Hey vampyregirl, what do you think of this news?:

Shell cancels multi billion $ refinery investment

I think it has the potential to really f*ck us, as a petroleum-dependent society, in the long run.

---or are you mostly a "post spam, then run" type of girl?

[vampyregirl]

I too am interested in NGV.
The little research that I have done indicates that they are unavailable outside of California unless your a gov't entity trying to buy a fleet.
My guess is that the big oil lobby does not want states to allow the average citizen the ability to purchase these things because you can refuel in your garage. This means you won't be buying that candy bar, big gulp & lottery tickets when you fill up in your garage....

That is why the Civic GX is being sold mostly as a fleet car. However with NG vehicles becoming more popular in Europe North America will eventually catch on.

[lper100km]

Apart from the technical feasibility, which I presume is adequate, I would be more concerned about the impact on the NG reserves. Clearly the supply of NG is finite, so substituting NG for gasoline will simply load more demand on this resource, probably at the expense of industrial and domestic users and hastening the onset of peak gas, if we are not there already.

On a BTU basis, 1mm btu is the energy equivalent of 8 US galls of gasoline and the cost of NG is approx 50% that of the equivalent amount of gasoline at the moment. I would expect that disparity to end soon enough, should automotive use increase, to the detriment of us all. Of course, for a society that permits it’s agribusiness to be subverted to produce fuel, the subversion of NG for auto use would be small step. The next winter that comes along, we will be starved, frozen and in the dark.

[gwmss15]

Well Natural Gas Vehicles have been the way of the future in Thailand. Plus a massive program of bio fuels which is now very popular that it has overtaken normal fuel sales by a great margin.

They have been converting hundreds of thousands of heavy trucks, buses and cars all over Thailand for the last few years that its now common to see CNG and NGV vehicles on the roads daily.

It is quite cheap to do the conversions 20000 baht (USD$750) for a car and 60000 baht (USD$2000) for a truck or bus.

Even mass transport boats have been converted to LPG and NGV now. Plus Rail Locomotives on port shuttles now operate on NGV.

It is possiable in Bangkok to by an C/E/S class Merc car from the showroom that runs on NGV. Plus many other cheap cars.

All petrol will become an ethanol blend of either E10 or E15 very soon as normal petrol (Gas in the US) is being fazed out. And starting 1st august E85 with a tax of 0.5% will be sold at most stations.

Also most diesel is now B5 ie 5% biodiesel. with some areas selling B100 or 100% biodiesel.

[Gerben]

That is why the Civic GX is being sold mostly as a fleet car. However with NG vehicles becoming more popular in Europe North America will eventually catch on.

One of the things I don't understand is why US car manufacturers don't make more NGVs. They can simply produce normal gasoline cars and have them retrofitted on the parking lot before being shipped out. They don't need to retool the factory at all. Many American fuel guzzlers imported to Europe are sold as a LPG or CNG retrofit by the importer.

[mos6507]

That is why the Civic GX is being sold mostly as a fleet car. However with NG vehicles becoming more popular in Europe North America will eventually catch on.

One of the things I don't understand is why US car manufacturers don't make more NGVs. They can simply produce normal gasoline cars and have them retrofitted on the parking lot before being shipped out. They don't need to retool the factory at all. Many American fuel guzzlers imported to Europe are sold as a LPG or CNG retrofit by the importer.

Consumers haven't been clamoring for them. From a cost perspective they may beat gas, but from a tree-hugger perspective, moving from one fossil fuel to another just doesn't feel very progressive.

[vetusfirma]

Hi, I have one.

I have posted on other threads about this. I have a 2001 Cavalier that is CNG/gas. It gets about 30mpg on gas and 29 on cng. I am getting a Phill installed, not ready yet, so I am filling at the gas company pump. Cost is about $1.89 gge (thats gasoline gallon equivalent). Engines are said to last 300,000 miles because they don't get craped up with the foul stuff thats in gas. So far it has been a dream. This was a GSA fleet vehicle which I bought at auction.

Anyway, lots of new gas discovery's in the US, so I'm not worried about supplies now. That was one of the reasons I got this, being able to get fuel when the normal cars couldn't. No rationing yet, but the cost is still great.

Oh, for treehugers, its the cleanest burning around. Its CH4 and is use indoors in warehouse forklifts, it won't kill you to breath a little. Remember, all lights used to be nat gas. burns so clean you can't tell its burning.

[runcar]

T. Boone Pickens has endorsed CNG vehicles, so that will get some play in the media for a while. In California, there are about 200 CNG stations right now (as opposed to about 25 hydrogen fueling stations) so at least the infrastructure has a better start as an alternative fuel. CNG may not be the perfect solution, but it’s cleaner than gasoline and can transition into a hydrogen economy if that is the way things are moving.

[lper100km]

CNG may not be the perfect solution, but it’s cleaner than gasoline and can transition into a hydrogen economy if that is the way things are moving.

That's a leap. How do you figure that?

[JustaGirl]

A lot of converted NG cars in my state as well as buses. I don't own one, but from what I've heard some of the filling stations have problems and it can take almost an hour to fill your car if the pressure is not right