[Plantagenet]

...you loose the argument ..

Give me a break. You don't even know how to spell the word "lose"

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahah!

Now can we please return to the topic of "natural gas vehicles" and whether or not the low price of natural gas reflects its abundance?


Estimates of global natural gas reserves

[misterno]

In Houston we have 3 NG stations but their prices are all same $2.49

My question is what is the MPG equivelant of NG vehicle? In other words how much MMBTU do I need to go say 1 mile or 100 miles with say Honda Civic NG?

[Plantagenet]

"Compression in the Civic GX is 12.5:1, higher than that of most US pump gasoline-powered automobiles. The significantly higher compression ratio is usable without detonation due to the 130-octane natural gas that powers the car. Acceleration of the 2012 Civic Natural Gas is less than that of the comparable 4-door 2012 LX model due to both lower power (110 hp vs. 140 hp) and heavier weight (2848 lbs vs 2705 lbs).[18][19] Zero-to-sixty times have been clocked at 12.6 seconds.[20]
The CNG cylinder (fuel tank) is carried in the trunk of the car and holds 8.0 GGE (Gasoline Gallon Equivalent) at 3600 psi.[18]
Range on a full 3600 psi fill is variable, depending on driving conditions and driving technique. While Honda claims an estimated 225–250 miles from a full CNG tank charge,[10] independent tests have found a lower ranges, at 180–200 miles[21] and "just over 200 miles" (about 300km).[22] For 2012 the EPA fuel economy increases with range increased to 225 ~ 250 miles. The EPA rates the 2009 Honda Civic GX at 24 equivalent MPG city and 36 equivalent MPG highway.[23] Independent tests with mixed driving usage found rates of "nearly 32"[24] and 26.8[22] equivalent MPG. The estimated fuel cost for this vehicle to drive 25 miles for a combination of city and highway driving is $1.47 using CNG.[23] The GX qualifies for HOV Lane access in California, Arizona, Utah, and other states.[25] ---Honda CNG Civic specs from Wikipedia


Honda Civic GX

[Plantagenet]

NG will never amount to a hill of methane beans. Sorry to bring the bad news.

The bad news is that, as usual, you just don't know what you are talking about.

Back in the real world NG makes up 24% of the total energy used in the USA right now.

NG use by sector in the US:

3% Transportation
34% Industrial
34% Residential and Commercial
29% Electric Power

Given that NG provides about 1/3 of all energy used in the Industrial, Residential and commerical and electric power industries, its not unreasonable that the transporation sector will see the percentage of NG energy rise from its current 3% level to some higher number.

NG supplies 25% of US energy consumption

[JRP3]

Now can we please return to the topic of "natural gas vehicles" and whether or not the low price of natural gas reflects its abundance?


Estimates of global natural gas reserves

Or not: http://news.yahoo.com/poland-may-curb-shale-gas-euphoria-174420163.html

A new report coming out Wednesday is expected to put the country's likely shale gas reserves at much less than initially thought.

Seems to be a pattern, overblown reserve estimates not reflecting reality. No wonder Planty is such a fan.

[JRP3]

Wow. So Obama still wants a federal tax credit of $7500 for the VOLT---which is selling so badly GM has stopped production---- but none for CNG cars where production is expanding now at Honda, GM and Chrysler??

Jeez----he's even stupider than I thought!

You're just as stupid as I thought. http://www.beaufortobserver.net/Articles-NEWS-and-COMMENTARY-c-2012-03-13-259234.112112-Sen-Burr-loses-on-natural-gas-subsidy-bill.html

The plan was opposed by a growing number of conservative groups who complained that it was yet another deficit busting give-away to special interests.

The vote signals the tough road ahead for the plan despite support for natural-gas vehicle incentives among many Democrats, Republicans and President Obama

[Plantagenet]

dup post

[Plantagenet]

poland-may-curb-shale-gas-euphoria-....A new report coming out Wednesday is expected to put the country's likely shale gas reserves at much less than initially thought.

Its just foolish for you and Pstarr to pretend that frakking hasn't resulted in the discovery of huge reserves of NG in the US and elsewhere.

A revision to somebody's estimate of how much gas might be found in Poland doesn't change the fact that frakking and other new technologies have resulted in a huge expansion of the US and global NG reserves. There is so much gas available driving gas prices down at the same time that oil prices are at record highs that the NG/oil price ratio is at record lows here in the US.

[Lore]

We really don't know for sure how much and at what cost. It has been so far, pure happy talk by the energy industry. Of course, all this has been mentioned many times here at PO.

There are a few bumps on the optimistic roadmap being drawn for natural gas, though. A New York Times investigative piece last year, for example, quotes industry insiders who believe the current shale gas fever is “inherently unprofitable,” a “giant Ponzi scheme” that “reminds you of dot-coms.

There are also the questionable impacts of hydrofracturing, a chemical- and water-intensive process for releasing natural gas from underground rock formations that opponents have linked to poisoned wellwater supplies and flammable streams of gas emerging from kitchen faucets.

And then there’s the nature of the natural gas deposits themselves. While shale formations might hold plenty of gas, wells dug to extract that gas deplete quickly, with production dropping by as much as 60 to 90 percent from peak in the first year alone.

In one of its three energy-outlook scenarios, the IEA expects global demand for natural gas to hit 4.75 trillion cubic meters by 2035 — up 55 percent over 2009 levels of 3.1 trillion cubic meters. That’s always been a tricky aspect of the IEA’s outlooks, though: the agency typically focuses on demand rather than on production … and “it’s production that matters,” as researchers James W. Murray and David King recently pointed out in a commentary in the journal Nature.
http://www.greenbang.com/how-much-natur ... 21336.html

[Plantagenet]

We really don't know for sure how much and at what cost. It has been so far, pure happy talk by the energy industry.

Of course we don't know how much or what it will cost in the future. The technology is new. But we do know that the use of frakking has allowed NG production from basins that formerly couldn't produce NG. The new gas production from the Bakken Formation and other shale basins across North America isn't just "happy talk"----its very real.

People need to face facts--- there is a heck of lot more NG available that can be produced then people thought just a few years ago.

[Plantagenet]

]Neither fracting nor horizontal wells are new technologies

BZZZT!

1. There is no such thing as "fracting".

2. "the current fracking technique was first used in the late 1990s in the Barnett Shale in Texas.[5]" --- Wikipedia.

The spread of the new fracking technique since its development less than 15 years ago has revolutionized the NG biz and produced land rushes from Texas to Ohio to New York to Alberta and a current glut of NG in the US market.

As oil use decreases, it is inevitable that alternative fuels like NG are going to be used more, especially as NG is now much much cheaper than oil.

AND, Some of the increase in NG use will be in the transporation sector.

[Plantagenet]

you can make a liar out of me....

Hi pstarr

The problem isn't that you are lying. They problem is that you don't know very much about this subject.

Yes, hydraulic fracturing was done back the 1950s. But it wasn't until the development of a new and better method of doing fracking called "slickwater" fracking in the 1990s that this technique became useful for developing production of oil and natural gas from shales.

Slickwater fracking

The invention of the new method of slickwater fracking by Mitchell Energy in the Barnett Shale in Texas in the 1990s is reponsible for the explosion of exploration and oil and NG production from the Barnett shale, the Marcellus shale, and other shale basins that weren't previously productive.


Shale basins now being developed for Natural Gas production as a result of the invention of "slickwater" hydrofracturing in the early 1990s.

[Lore]

Which is why NG will keep pace with prices of other fuels.

Natural gas drilling slows as prices drop
Published: February 12, 2012

As natural gas prices continue to drop, the recent nationwide boom in drilling is slowing. Drillers don't make money if prices go too low.

"It is safe to say that there will be fewer natural gas wells drilled in 2012," said Kathryn Klaber, president of the Marcellus Shale Coalition, an industry group based in Pennsylvania.

In recent weeks, several companies have announced plans to cut gas production around the nation.

When the shale drilling boom was starting in 2008 the average price for a unit of gas was about $8. Two years ago it was down to $5.50, and now it's dropped to about $2.50. The shale gas formations became productive more rapidly than expected, as thousands of new wells have been drilled nationwide.

Industry reports note that the national count of active new gas drilling rigs fell to 775 in early February, down from about 1,500 in 2008.

Yet Klaber said the low prices create opportunities for more use of the product. Some drilling companies are focusing more on the so-called "wet gas," which sells for a higher price because it can be transformed by refineries into consumer products such as plastics and fertilizer.
http://www.newsday.com/business/natural ... -1.3524421

[Wootan]

This is the great opportunity for NG:

When the shale drilling boom was starting in 2008 the average price for a unit of gas was about $8. Two years ago it was down to $5.50, and now it's dropped to about $2.50. The shale gas formations became productive more rapidly than expected, as thousands of new wells have been drilled nationwide.

IIRC, NG prices used to track the prices of petroleum products quite close. When fracking really came online (why bother with when it was invented?), the NG prices decoupled from crude pricing. All that cheap energy could have opened up a lot of new uses for it, primarily in transportation. That Obama/the US didn't grab that opportunity with both hands launching a new NG-era/energy independency program is beyond me.