[alokin]

Here's an awesome film on fracking in Australia. It is a good tool to get the discussion in your community going. We had a screening on Saturday and people were very moved it is the second from the top: http://www.lockthegate.org.au/videos

[ROCKMAN]

Alokin - interesting but none of the videos I pulled up had anything to do with frac'ng. They discussed coal bed methane and surface/underground coal mining. The CBM video was a bit confusing. They discussed the concern of depleting the fresh water aquifers by the de-watering of the CBM wells. But that water would be coming from the coal beds...not the aquifers. That's why the water is pulled out of the coals: to release the methane. Producing the aquifers wouldn't aid in the CBM ops. I have very little experience with CBM but I was in Wyoming when it became a significant effort there. And for the most part the ranchers were pleased with the de-watering process. It's a semi-arid region and water is always a concern. The CBM water was fresh. In fact, a number of commercial fish farms were established using CBM water. So here's the critical question: what is chemical analysis of the CBM water in the area? Not criticizing the intent behind the videos but there's virtually no technical information. Lots of emotions and speculation which isn't undue but nothing was presented to allow one to agree or disagree with the position of Lock the Gate.

Degradation of the land and associated pollution from surface coal mining certainly is a serious matter. A question: do the coal resources belong to the Crown or individuals? If the Crown controls the coal and an individual owns the surface what are the rules?

[alokin]

You're right, the part with the water was a bit confusing. I think the water which comes up is somehow contaminated, in Australia there is often salt, but it definitively need clarification.

The whole film was not meant to be a technical information, but rather for people learning what happens to their community when coal seam gas moves in. Farming and CSG clearly does not go together. Farmers rely on wells and creeks, once they are contaminated, what will their animals drink? We are a big exporter for agricultural products too. This is long term, CSG is short term.
In Australia we only own the topsoil. If CSG or open cut mining moves in your farm is worthless over night, the only buyer is the mine and they pay a fraction of what it was worth before.
I find it scary that over 50% of all our land is under thread of some sort of an exploration license.
The film shows (in the CSG) quite well how a before pristine bushland is then criss crossed by roads, cutting a consistent ecosystem into small parcels, no space for big animals. National park and CSG does not go together either. Aussies love their nature.
If you watch the film from another perspective than the technical one, rather from one who is living there it makes a lot of sense. However it is true that lock the gate should put some technical information together. The problem is they are only a few, the countryside is only sparsely populated, farms are huge.

[ROCKMAN]

A - Certainly have a right to fear coal mining of any fashion if there aren't good regs in place. At the least the surface owner's should be fairly treated with their land valuations. In Texas the mineral rights are often owned by one individual and the surface a different owner. While I can't use the surface without fairly compensating the surface owner they don't have the right to keep the mineral owner from monetizing their asset either. There are areas in Texas where mineral rights sell for many times the price per acre of the surface rights. Here it's much simpler than in Australia: you don't want drilling or coal mining on your land you buy the mineral rights and then never lease them. Then it's your asset (that you paid a lot for) that becomes worthless.

I don't now how they do CBM in Australia but the ops I've seen in the US have done little to disrupt the surface. Don't know what those nasty pictures were but I'm pretty sure it wasn't a CBM field. Each well takes less then an acre and cattle graze all around the wells. Plowing is a bit more difficult but the vast majority of the land is still just as usable. And maybe it's different there but all CBM water I know of isn't salt water. So again back to my criticism: if the CBM water is salty or has some other problem then show the test results.

I have a suspicion that the concern over coal mining is tainting thoughts about CBM.

[manicthrasher]

ROCKMAN, in Australia, mineral rights are owned by the crown and land by the land holder. Its my understanding that the mining companies have to obtain leases from the state govts and either have to lease or purchase the land they are mining on and under. Not sure if eminent domain laws can effect the outcomes for mining entities, but I'd presume so.

Considering Australia's a huge, first world coal producer, there are pretty reasonable safeguards against environmental and societal damage. In fact, coal bed methane extraction is legally mandated (due to workplace health and safety) in producing mines and burned for commercial purposes. I can guarantee you that there has been ZERO concern over CBM extraction in this case.

Also, there's little legitimate (outside the environmental fringe) concern about coal mining here, outside communities with open cut mines nearby. I live in a coal mining and port city and it is seen as a great boon. In fact, there is widespread lamenting when coal mines close or downsize.

Having said that, I have the suspicion surrounding the effects of CBM is actually tainted by H-fracking in the shale plays in the US and the perceived environmental effects there. I say this as the widespread activism started here around at the same time as the gaslands movie.

(also, to all those who are against extraction of CBM or tight gas in shales, try living down wind of coke ovens, a coal export terminal, a copper smelter and a steel works. )

[alokin]

Sydney a coal mining city? Or do you live in Newcastle?
Not true, I heard many people complaining what they do to the Hunter Valley.

I don't know a lot about the technical side. But it is true that they inject a whole lot of chemicals while fracking. These don't do us the favour to stay put, they go into the water table, especially if you are in a water catchment area.
Yes you can farm around fracking sites, if you still have uncontaminated water. I don't believe that all people in that film are lying when telling that their water has been contaminated.

[toolpush]

Fracing is used in some CBM wells but not all. Where the coal has natural fractures, then horizontal wells are being drilled perpendicular to those fractures. No fracing required. As the anti fracing movement has grown the gas companies have moved more in third direction.
Australia may differ from the the US in that most of the Queensland wells are being drilled for 3 large LNG projects that are being constructed simultaneously. Therefore a very large number of wells need to be producing once they come on line stating next year. This has probably created a a very closely spaced drilling frenzy. The space and visual impact while drilling the wells is much greater than once the well is on line. I frequently drive past a couple of mature wells on the Hume Hwy, just out of Sydney. I doubt if 1% of the driving population going bye even realize that they are online gas wells.
As for the water being drained from the coal seam, I believe it is slightly salty. Some farmers initially used it for irrigation, but turn the soil hard as a rock. It would probably benefit passing it through a desal plant which has been done to a certain degree. This was definitely talked about by the companies in the early days, not sure now they are in full production. Frac fluids were also to be put through a desal, but we seem to have the habit of wanting to store waste water in holding dams, evaporation ponds. I don't know what happened to all these evaporation ponds during the recent floods in the last few years?
Rockman, as you say plenty of emotion, and short on technical details.

[alokin]

Well they overflowed. Or what else you assume?

[toolpush]

Alokin,

Yes, I assume they over flowed, but I never heard anything from the media or any of my associates. To me this should be one of the areas the "Shut the Gates" should be looking at, and gaining a better out come for their supporters. There are a lot of issues with the Coal Seam Gas extraction, mainly that is a new and rapidly grow industry, basically in a gold rush phase of development. But they have grabbed hold of the emotive term of Fracing, which very few people understand and can very easily be mislead and run with it. I am not sure if the organizers understand the issues or not, but they seem to have the agenda of stopping all CSG/CBM development, which is now too late, rather than come to negotiated settlements to improve the general out comes for the land holders.

[ROCKMAN]

Alokin - As distasteful as it might be the LTG folks might have more success trying to ork with the companies/gov't then going for an all or nothing approach. This represents a big revenue source for the gov't so I doubt the companies have to lobby much. And the other Aussies outside the area want to see the gov't more royalties/taxes. But to be effective they need to have folks with strong tech knowledge on their side. Many in the US like to brag about the decrease in our coal consumption. But at the same time we've increased coal exports by 2000%. And much of that has come from federal leases generating more income for the US gov't. And that's a motivation that citizen groups will find difficult to overcome.

Better for those folks to compromise to get stronger regulations and better compensation. In the real world rarely does David defeat Goliath.

[Subjectivist]

They made a new version of the film, but how much is true and how much is exaggeration?

http://youtu.be/nAIMIEUuakQ

[AdamB]

Here's an awesome film on fracking in Australia. It is a good tool to get the discussion in your community going. We had a screening on Saturday and people were very moved it is the second from the top: http://www.lockthegate.org.au/videos

'The page you are looking for was not found"

Must have been a pretty popular video, to not even have lasted 24 months on the web.

[ROCKMAN]

Sub - I watched the new film and there's nothing to criticize others then the don't offer a single DOCUMENTED case if damage or pollution caused by frac'ng. But I'll guess there have been some. I don't know the regs now but at one time it looks like surface ponding of frac water might have been allowed. As pointed out before: you can't do that sh*t in Texas...now. LOL. This is where these folks consistently go wrong IMHO: show documented cases. I assume just like in the US they have consulting engineers and geologistS down under that for a fee will do the research. The Rockman himself has provided expert witness several times for landowners going after companies. For a consultant all money is tye same green regardless of the source. LOL. And twice he helped lead to illegal dumping charges being brought...and didn't even get paid for it. LOL.

Folks can make all the emotion based arguments they want but rarely has the Rockman seen it have the desired effects. OTOH having a company employee deposed by a lawyer with a geologist/engineer whispering in his ear can be a very powerful force at times. Not sure how much the film cost to make but it might have been better spent paying a clerk to research govt records for actual violation write ups.

[Outcast_Searcher]

Here's an awesome film on fracking in Australia. It is a good tool to get the discussion in your community going. We had a screening on Saturday and people were very moved it is the second from the top: http://www.lockthegate.org.au/videos

OTOH, the source is clearly biased against fracking. OTOH, fracking has done more to produce an abundance (at least in the short term) of natural gas. NGL's, and oil than we could have possibly imagined just twenty years ago. OTOH, regulators like the EPA don't agree that fracking is inherently unsafe.

Why are far left wildly biased films called "awesome"? Because they make the greens feel good?

...

OTOH, if there is anything valid here, put together a meaningful case and get the EPA to take action. Or get congress to declare fracking dangerous and change the laws. That would actually mean something.

In the mean time, delaying the end of hydrocarbons by (apparently) multiple decades is a great thing for consumers, and buys time to ramp up clean energy sources. Obviously AGW isn't being fixed, but given the recent Paris "accords", aside from empty rhetoric, it's not like humanity is willing to do much about that anyway.

[ennui2]

Fracting is finished. It peaked and the industry is broke.

Why, because you say so? Sorry. You have to do better than that.

And why the hell are you spelling it "fracting" instead of "fracking"? Is it a nervous tic or something? Did a redwood branch fall on your head or something? Get a grip.

[ROCKMAN]

Frac'ng isn't finished...still happening around the world and in the U.S. Not as often as when the US shales were booming but still a common tech. The Rockman has frac'd two conventional reservoirs in the last few months. Many tens of thousands of wells were frac'd before the shale boom and many will be frac'd in the future. IOW frac'ng is not exclusively an Eagle Ford/Bakken phenomenon.

[Subjectivist]

RM hydraulic fracturing of oil (not NG) on long laterals doesn't really seem to be happening except in the US and Canada. At least it is not apparent to me, and not beyond the exploratory phase. Is that true?

No that is not true.