[Starvid]

I just fell in love.

This is the new Mitsubishi gasoline serial hybrid electric-dominant car prototype. The production version will be a plug-in.

Ain't it pretty?

And with suicide doors in the back too!
[web]http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/media/2006/detroit/mitsubishi.concept.ct/mitsubishi.conceptct.f34.500.jpg[/web]

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Au ... d=108851#1
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/01 ... .html#more

[Mesuge]

If I'm reading it correctly and they are planning to use 50kW battery pack based on Li-ion technology that's gonna be bloody expensive. You better prepare to plunk down 2x more than for ordinary hybrid at the minimum..

The way to go is cheaper battery be it next gen nano carbon collector lead acids or other simpler and cheaper chemistries..

The oil gang has stolen a number of these promising technologies so we can't expect them to release it on large scale before PO arives in fury..

[The_Toecutter]

The oil gang has stolen a number of these promising technologies so we can't expect them to release it on large scale before PO arives in fury..

Because the oil gang knows a peak oil crisis is going to make them lots more money than even their record profits during hurricanes Rita and Katrina. Any alternative that poses a threat to a shortage occuring, the oilies will fight.


But I cannot help but wonder what mass production will do to the price of Li Ions. They may become affordable to the hobbyists, provided the batteries are usable by them and aren't rigged with some impossible to manage computer system that has software exclusively designed for Mitsubishi's motors and inverters...

AC Propulsion pegged mass production of lithium ion batteries at < $250/kWh of storage. I doubt that will ever become reality due to control of vested interests(auto and oil industries), but it is comforting to know what is possible today.

[Starvid]

I have been thinking a bit of the cost premium of electric cars. It is obvious they can be more expensive to buy initially since their fuel cost will be a lot lower (a lot like nuclear power plants ).

Ok, I'll put this in an European context. In Western Europe gasoline cost about $1,5 a litre. Let's say your average motorist will drive 50 km a day, 250 days a year and with a car that consumes 0.8 litres per 10 km, and he will keep his car fo 10 years.

It adds up to a total fuel cost of 50*250*0,08*1,5*10= $15.000

But then you need to buy electricity. Let's say electricity will cost 1,5 cents per kWh and your electric car will use 3 kWh per 10 km. Driving patterns remain the same as above. Your electricity cost will be 50*250*3*0,015*10= $5625

Total fuel saving $15.000-$5625= $9375

As your average car cost $15.000 - $25.000 it seems you can put quite a big price premium on electric cars, 50 % in certain cases. Another big saving should be less maintenance and reparation costs since electric cars are more durable and require less maintenance.

My above numbers are very rough. Please improve them if you can.

[Mesuge]

Starvid, your general direction is correct.

However, I think it is more usefull to conceptualize the EV costs as follows.
The major chunk of any EV operation is in amortization of energy storage. The numbers are aprox. 1/5 electricity (off peak nightly charging cycle) and 4/5 ammortization of battery makes your overall cost structure.

Even nowadays, the lead acid batteries and off peak charging rates gives you the same operation costs as infernals (ICEs) or slightly better over the long haul 5-10yrs. If you factor in 30% govern. rebates in some EU states it's even better! But you have to acknowledge smaller range and speed.

Your EV has to be equiped with BMS, thermo management, and most importantely driving according to specs! For instance if you drive on cheap AGM recombination batteries you CAN'T go over their C1 discharge values, unless for a very short period of time.

As an illustration imagine you have gel/agm 15x6V@225Ah cells with C1 approx. around 120-140Ah. That's a consumption of very aerodynamic EV with AC drive and regen at 50mph. So if you stick to these maximum discharge values you can get 60-100.000km from a single battery pack.
Obviously a coouple of batteries could die in the meantime but this can be
minimized by BMS, thermo mangagement, proper alghorithm charging etc..

You can have advanced battery chemistries where you can go slightly above C1 like NiMh, Li-ion, expensive GELs like Optima but not for continual operation that will kill any battery..

The problem is that even most of the EViers or EV manufactureres are not familiar or deliberately obfuscate some of the above mentioned basic stuff so they often kill their batteries prematurely which results in bad publicity etc.

So, the overall picture is that individual EV conversion diy style are possible given the appropriate set of knowledge tools and operational habits. To master all this complexity on "volume" production is not a problem if the companies actually do it. For instance the GM EV-1 gen II had all these features incorporated and was very dependable car in all aspects..

But as we all know auto industry makes profits only on SUVs, financing services, and aftermarekt sales/servicing so EVs don't fit into their
picture yet..