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Miseducation: How Climate Change Is Taught in America

Re: Miseducation: How Climate Change Is Taught in America

Unread postby theluckycountry » Fri 01 Sep 2023, 15:00:04

Newfie wrote:Lucky,

You ask some good questions but I think you need to draw back some to find satisfying answers. In a way it goes back to The Tragedy of the Commons. It is an old and true parable, much wisdom there, what is not obvious about the moral?

But, collectively we act completely opposite to the lesson.


Collectively yes, but individually we have a choice. When I point out about the banks and other modern institutions bleeding the people dry I'm not railing against them, just pointing out the facts for people to make up their own minds about. Those institutions don't effect me personally, in fact I have been enriched by one. We all have a choice, we can run with the common culture, complaining about it's deficiencies and overbearing ways or we can break the rules and make our own system.

Fifty years ago, University of California professor Garrett Hardin penned an influential essay in the journal Science. Hardin saw all humans as selfish herders: we worry that our neighbors’ cattle will graze the best grass. So, we send more of our cows out to consume that grass first. We take it first, before someone else steals our share. This creates a vicious cycle of environmental degradation that Hardin described as the “tragedy of the commons.”


If you want to understand the crazy, mixed-up, 21st century information ecosystem, think about it as what is called a “tragedy of the commons.” That tragedy is enacted any time acting in your own self-interest unwittingly leads to a collective disaster.

https://www.durangoherald.com/articles/ ... ws-crisis/

I only have self interest. I'm not in the least interested in my neighbors lives aside from social interactions and that is because they generally adhere to the mores of current society. We stand apart, on nearly every major topic, though I am careful to hide this fact. What happened 100 years ago or 50,000 years ago does not interest me other than how I can apply their failures to my personal well-being. Sound selfish? It is. It's the tragedy of the commons in it's rawest form.

Mankind is corrupt to the core. We're a murderous destructive species in aggregate and it takes little to push the average person out of the mall and into the battlefield. The weak ones, the meek, they are generally peaceful and will stand against climate change etc but they are so few and we so many their voice is drowned out by our consumption. The world will go it's way, to hell in a handbasket, and we can either go down with it or make plans now to mitigate these changes in our own lives. You and I can, the billions in poor nations have no such choice. We were just lucky to be born into rich societies at the right time in history.
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Re: Miseducation: How Climate Change Is Taught in America

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 01 Sep 2023, 19:05:10

Agent,

That is true.

But that is sort of an artificial line. Sapiens successfully mated with Neanderthals, which means we are pretty much the same species. How lood are Neanderthals?

Homo sapiens and Neanderthals evolved from even older predecessors. How old was Lucy?

The problem, the evolution of the problem, predates sapiens, we are just the most recent branch of the tree. That is what I am on about.
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Re: Miseducation: How Climate Change Is Taught in America

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 01 Sep 2023, 19:12:38

Lucky,

I can’t tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing.

But I agree we are going to hell.

Personally we attempt to do better than average to set an example for our kids and others.
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Re: Miseducation: How Climate Change Is Taught in America

Unread postby AgentR11 » Sat 02 Sep 2023, 16:03:54

Going by the wiki, Neanderthals aren't that much older than us, dating back 430k years. Prior to us(and them) of course you have hominids back a few million (lucy at 3.2 mil), but I think it'd be a mistake to consider them human. Still, I see your point that our evolution has anointed us with certain features that are not serving us very well in the current situation.
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Re: Miseducation: How Climate Change Is Taught in America

Unread postby theluckycountry » Sat 02 Sep 2023, 21:37:44

This business about "How Climate Change Is Taught in America" is little different to how "finance is Taught in America" or "How past wars are Taught in America" or any other major topic you could name. The fact is the education system (which includes the media) is strictly controlled by the Government, by the elite white class, and will never teach anything that gives the people power over them. Quite the contrary, they teach what continues to enrich them.

It's why there is Emergency after Emergency. You can never let the people sit idle and think. That is dangerous, keep their minds occupied with external factors of seeming import. The Liberty of the ukraine region, the race issues, the political puppet show, the global warming circus. Anything that will redirect their thinking processes or overpower them. It's not something a young person can grasp though, and they are too busy slaving for a secure home and future anyway. It's just a shame that so few actually achieve it. They end up wasting a lot of their life savings on compound interest payments and on financial schemes designed to milk them. It's only when you are approaching the end of life and are secure that you can kickback and debate these issues with any experience. Life experience is worth more than Gold.
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Re: Miseducation: How Climate Change Is Taught in America

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 03 Sep 2023, 09:20:15

Agent,
And I take your point as well. We don't really know when we changed or developed the bad habits. It seems many have pinned it to the development of agriculture. Others pin it to the development of religion. Others, still seriously, have pinned it to the discovery of beer! All I was really trying to say is we really do not know butbit something we carry in our gene set.

Frankly another good candidate would be the Tonga near extinction event, but apparently there was another one even earlier of similar magnitude.

I came across this interesting graphic, credited to Science.

Image
free image hosting

Original story in Sci3nce, the link is to an open Popular Science story.

https://www.google.com/search?client=ms ... -oAG2Gd5fM
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Re: Miseducation: How Climate Change Is Taught in America

Unread postby AgentR11 » Sun 03 Sep 2023, 12:02:43

Hmm. That's funny that we both ran across that event. When I saw it, it made me kinda wonder what we learned at some point that both allowed our population to recover, but perhaps also, a lesson that is setting us up for a new bottleneck with no guarantee of survival. We're certainly following a trajectory that is common in nature of bloom and bust, with few if any instances of bloom and persist to suggest another result.

My bet is on agriculture though for the sapiens bloom at the bottom of your graph. But beer certainly can go along with that, hand in hand!
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Re: Miseducation: How Climate Change Is Taught in America

Unread postby phaster » Mon 04 Sep 2023, 13:04:19

theluckycountry wrote:
Newfie wrote:Lucky,

You ask some good questions but I think you need to draw back some to find satisfying answers. In a way it goes back to The Tragedy of the Commons. It is an old and true parable, much wisdom there, what is not obvious about the moral?

But, collectively we act completely opposite to the lesson.


Mankind is corrupt to the core. We're a murderous destructive species in aggregate and it takes little to push the average person out of the mall and into the battlefield. The weak ones, the meek, they are generally peaceful and will stand against climate change etc but they are so few and we so many their voice is drowned out by our consumption. The world will go it's way, to hell in a handbasket, and we can either go down with it or make plans now to mitigate these changes in our own lives. You and I can, the billions in poor nations have no such choice. We were just lucky to be born into rich societies at the right time in history.


Sigh,... that's sadly basic human nature

In 2018 went to the Catholic Answers Faith AND Science because I thought the issue of climate change was going to be discussed,... should not have made that assumption because the topic of was not once mentioned by anyone there (other than myself)

Bring up the topic of religion, because as I see things "faith can move mountains"

IOW when the will power of the people is there,... this in turn will have a real world effect on scientists/engineers who have the skills to get the job done

Now that I have developed enough "art" skills to make info graphics that show the thought point I have in my mind,

Image

Image

Image

put together a Doodly video about stuff Christians should know (but sadly they do not)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsvsFTwwThg
truth is,...

www.ThereIsNoPlanet-B.org
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Re: Miseducation: How Climate Change Is Taught in America

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 04 Sep 2023, 14:52:10

Phaster,
As eloquent a reply as have ever heard.
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Re: Miseducation: How Climate Change Is Taught in America

Unread postby phaster » Mon 02 Oct 2023, 14:03:08

Newfie wrote:Phaster,
As eloquent a reply as have ever heard.



I've slowly been refining the climate change 'brief' which is broken down into three parts,... the first two cover key facts (and ideas) Catholics should know, but were not taught in school

https://youtu.be/HU74jKKzlRg

https://youtu.be/c5WUn3pyFck

the third is an extended version of the YouTube video I mentioned in the OP

https://youtu.be/ceOzixm5ZLg

FWIW I'm trying to create a truthful content rich, short and memorable presentation about man made climate change

Basically IMHO meaningful action to counter adverse knock on effects (caused by burning fossil fuels) won't happen until people actually have a good basic understanding of the science (which itself has entanglements in other subject areas like theology and psychology for example)
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Re: Miseducation: How Climate Change Is Taught in America

Unread postby theluckycountry » Mon 02 Oct 2023, 17:41:06

interesting post phaser, interesting subject. I believe many of us here have christian roots and many probably consider themselves Christians, trying to sort out the wheat from the chaff so to speak.

I read this a while back and found it very... informative.

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
Joh 6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
Joh 6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
Joh 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
Joh 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.


This was after the miracle of the feeding of the 5000 so there were many followers at that point. Yet they walked away, simply because they couldn't accept a spiritual concept. They couldn't rationalize it into a human framework they could accept. But you can't, it's spiritual and has nothing to do with physical eating, (Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing) you just have to accept it by faith like all spiritual concepts.

This is the whole thing in a nutshell. And why religions of all types do so well. The religious practitioners take spiritual concepts and convert them into humanistic, worldly concepts that various groups of people can believe, then the pews are filled.

As fashions in culture change, so do many churches change to meet them. It's why the pentecostal churches have such large numbers, they are offering what the people want. I went to a wedding a decade or so ago, a young couple, members of a progressive pentecostal church of decent size. First thing I noticed was that the pastor was in jeans, where we all were in dress pants and the girls wearing nice dresses. I said "What's with the jeans? This is a wedding?" The woman who had invited me, it was her son getting married said, "Oh he always wears jeans" She said it with total acceptance, yet I'll wager if I had worn jeans she would not have liked it.

It was in a park and later we went to the reception. I swear it was a set up just like a nightclub, the music was christian but rock, the lights were dim, there was a bar serving shots, everyone was getting into it, little barrel tables everywhere where the groups clustered. I felt totally out of place as an older guy and couldn't get out fast enough and though that this was "no church for middle aged men". But that's what they wanted, the "world" as it was on the Gold Coast, a city full of glittering nightclubs.

The believe the bible is very clear on this point.
Jam 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
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Re: Miseducation: How Climate Change Is Taught in America

Unread postby phaster » Wed 04 Oct 2023, 18:01:43

theluckycountry wrote:I believe many of us here have christian roots and many probably consider themselves Christians, trying to sort out the wheat from the chaff so to speak.


the expression sort out the wheat from the chaff can be stated in so many ways:

looking for the best S/N "signal to noise ratio"

looking to "cut through the Bull$hit"

or as is suppose to be taught in elementary, middle and high school (but sadly does not seem like it),...

Image

which is why I'm motivated to try my hand at creating a Doodly video,...

https://youtu.be/miFc25jDHMg
truth is,...

www.ThereIsNoPlanet-B.org
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Re: Miseducation: How Climate Change Is Taught in America

Unread postby theluckycountry » Thu 05 Oct 2023, 17:17:06

phaster wrote:the expression sort out the wheat from the chaff can be stated in so many ways:

looking for the best S/N "signal to noise ratio"

looking to "cut through the Bull$hit"

or as is suppose to be taught in elementary, middle and high school (but sadly does not seem like it),...
which is why I'm motivated to try my hand at creating a Doodly video,...

https://youtu.be/miFc25jDHMg


Yes, well said. Sorting out the wheat from the chaff is something I have endeavored to do, off and on, since my teen years really. I was brought up in a protestant church, sunday school, all that. But my parents of course just lived a secular life, church stuff was never discussed at home. Naturally I grabbed a Rum bottle and a bag of weed as soon as I could and went off partying like all my peers of the 1970's.

That Venn diagram is quite apt, That's how I see it too. In the middle are all the believers and they range from set to set though my math on sets is a bit weak so I can't determine how it is where some believers actually believe nearly all the truth and some all the lies (fact/fiction). One thing I know though is that the collective sentiment we have in society today has been repeated over and over in earlier times. The Black death, the year with out a Summer after My Tambora blew it's stack. I'm sure the people back then thought it was the end of the world too.

This time it's worse of course, but those with faith see the hand of God in things and many believe there won't be an extinction like event for mankind due to GW. Anyway that's just my take on it, from someone who has read the bible as an adult, outside of a church environment where they put their spin on it.

This is a fascinating vid, an evolutionary scientist/archeologist went in search of Sodom, and found it! The explanation for it's destruction will impress you I think. The only way to discover it, aside from being an eye-witness to the event, would be with the use of modern scientific data and methods only available in recent history.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x30dv4e
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