[ohanian]

It really is no wonder the suicide rate among low educated whites is up. They've been listening to the "welfare queen" talking points all their life and voting for policies that benefit the ownership. Their one solace was the ability to be outraged and look down on the class (and races) "below".

Now they are in the position they have been shaming for generations and have no one to blame but themselves
.

They are truly hoisted by their own Picard.

[Hawkcreek]

I am hoping you meant petard. If not I am lost again in Star Trek land.
Happens more and more since I started taking those depression drugs.

[onlooker]

Great insights and links as usual AP. Oh yes this as was said is going as planned, gutting the American middle class as now the capitalist class has other viable consumers in other parts of the world. Funny how greed can turn against the greedy. This country is founded by the notion of greed and now that is the cross it must bare. Scammers scamming the scammers. Ah yes the ownership class laughing all the way to the bank,oops they are the banks. I think any discussion of the demise of the US middle class should always note how Americans are completely drowned in debt.

[Cog]

An many of those Americans enter the debt servitude totally on their own initiative. Which is why you educate your children early on to avoid the trap of easy credit.

[Oneaboveall]

They are truly hoisted by their own Picard.

[ennui2]

Great insights and links as usual AP. Oh yes this as was said is going as planned

Planned by whom? Pops just explained that we get the government policies we deserve. It's a democracy. You want someone to blame, blame voters. They've been voting for trickle-down economics since Reagan.

Ah yes the ownership class laughing all the way to the bank,oops they are the banks. I think any discussion of the demise of the US middle class should always note how Americans are completely drowned in debt.

One of the things I agree with conservatives on is that people should take more personal responsibility for their decisions. This is why when the credit crisis hit, I was not particularly sympathetic to homeowners who never should have gotten those liar loans in the first place losing their homes.

So all this demonizing of the "ownership class" ignores the fact that the masses bought trickle-down economics, hook line and sinker. At what point should we expect people to take responsibility for their gullibility?

It's just easier to blame banksters because everyone is envious of their money/power, but simple stupidity is just as much a cause of Homo Sapiens having such a bleak future as TPTB trying to game the system in their favor.

[ennui2]

An many of those Americans enter the debt servitude totally on their own initiative. Which is why you educate your children early on to avoid the trap of easy credit.

On that point, I actually agree with you. The problem with liberal issues is they often cast people as hopeless victims who seem to not be expected to exercise any free-will.

[onlooker]

Planned by whom? Pops just explained that we get the government policies we deserve. It's a democracy. You want someone to blame, blame voters. They've been voting for trickle-down economics since Reagan.

If we are starting from the premise that we still have a Democracy their is not much common ground to debate.
Okay let us accept that the masses are stupid. I will concede to some degree that. But in my book their are worst characteristics than stupid. How about shrewd, manipulative, lacking compassion, greedy, liars and megalomaniacs. That is why me and others dwell on the TPTB because they have constructed and devised a set of systems and rules that is extremely exploitative, greedy/consumer oriented and intent on economic growth at any price. If you Ennui and others defend this world-wide system and its architects then in fact you are the ones being gullible. In fact a big part of the system is propaganda passed off as news to keep the masses fooled and distracted with misinformation and trivial fare. For you are convenient tools to keep the system afloat. I know this is the part where you say well if you do not like it, walk away,off the grid. Ah if it were that easy. Because even those of you here who are somewhat independent and off line still depend on the system for the trade, communication, food, taxes, security etc.

[ennui2]

But in my book their are worst characteristics than stupid.

There, their, they're.

How about shrewd, manipulative, lacking compassion, greedy, liars and megalomaniacs.

You think the rich and powerful are the only kind of people with personality faults?

If you Ennui and others defend this world-wide system

I am not defending it. I am rebutting the narrative that this is a system that is impressed upon the innocent plebes against their will. By and large, BAU is something that everyone feeds and supports at every step of the chain, right down to Cog and his precious coal-rolling truck that he says he'll keep until it's pulled from his cold dead hands.

part of the system is propaganda passed off as news to keep the masses fooled and distracted with misinformation and trivial fare.

Again you keep toting a sort of singular groupthink or cabal ala the movie They Live. It doesn't exist other than in your own head.



The problems of mankind are just that, universal to mankind. It's just that they wreak the most damage via TPTB. But they can also wreak damage at smaller scales, witness the various mass-shootings of late. The unwashed masses are perfectly capable of demonstrating their lack of love for their fellow man. Likewise, not all rich have a universally evil agenda. Witness the conversion of Bill Gates from being an object of hate to probably the biggest philanthropist the world has ever seen.

You paint with a comically broad brush and that's why I don't take these kinds of screeds seriously. It doesn't mean I defend or love BAU. I just bristle at your cartoon caricature portrait of BAU. It's not as black and white as you make it out to be.

[Plantagenet]

BAU is something that everyone feeds and supports at every step of the chain

Just because you are a corrupt and co-opted disingenuous sleaze who supports BAU doesn't mean that everyone else is the same as you. No doubt the vast majority of people are deeply invested in the status quo just as you are, but there are indeed people out there who don't support the current system and either seek to change things or have escaped from BAU to live off the grid.

The unwashed masses...

Again you are confusing your own situation and your own worldview with that of everyone else. Just because you never bathe does' t mean that no one else does.

It doesn't mean I defend ..... BAU.

Of course you defend BAU. Thats all you do now. Read your own posts sometime.

cheers!

[Plantagenet]

It really is no wonder the suicide rate among low educated whites is up. They've been listening to the "welfare queen" talking points all their life and voting for policies that benefit the ownership. Their one solace was the ability to be outraged and look down on the class (and races) "below".

Now they are in the position they have been shaming for generations and have no one to blame but themselves
.

They are truly hoisted by their own Picard.

1. They aren't hoisted by Jean Luc "Picard"----he's the Captain of the Federation Star Ship Enterprise. The word you want is petard---a petard is small bomb. To be hoisted by one's own petard means to be undone by their own scheme or plan.

2. Working class folks used to be able to earn a good living in the USA. Now they can't because the factories and wages have gone overseas thanks to Clinton's NAFTA policy and other similar trade deals, culminating in Obama's new TPP policy.

Dismissing people who've lost their jobs as racists doesn't really get at the root of the problem causing the shrinking of the US middle class, which is more about globalization and the hollowing out of the US economy resulting in the loss of millions of good paying jobs.

[Shaved Monkey]

Jobs went off shore so rich people could pay less in wages, pollute more and make more money.
Its just like having slaves but without the stigma and with more cheap polluting thrown in for free.

[KaiserJeep]

Interesting discussion. I would advance a theory of my own.

1) The disappearing Middle Class is a deliberate strategy of the 1% who own/run the world. The Middle Class wealth was exported, mainly to India and China, but to a lesser extent to every 3rd World nation that has had a shot of "industrialization" to take advantage of their cheap labor. In my field of computers, we exported manufacturing to China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, San Salvador, and South Korea. We exported software development, software QA, and software distribution to India. Like things happened all over all the developed countries, from Canada, Europe, the UK, Australia and the former USSR.

2) In the USA and in fact in almost all developed countries, those sliding down from Middle Class traded incomes for increased debt. I saw people I knew obsessively buying cases of wine, as if they had not lost their jobs. I saw this behavior continue until they had spent their 401K retirement funds, with no way to pay the resulting taxes and penalties. I ran across a former IT guy I knew from work at my local branch of the San Jose Public Library. As I left the building, I saw his pickup truck with a cap over the extended bed, squashed onto the suspension bumpstops, and inside, baking in the sun, the contents of his wine cellar. He no longer had an income, a family, a home, or clean clothes - but he had his wine, all cooking into vinegar, and a truck to sleep in. He was still in denial, never once in our conversation did he mention his new lifestyle.

3) The only motive I can think of for the 1% to want something like this is to make WW3 an unthinkable event. The thing is, they are probably correct - China and India own more and more US debt, as they do from all developed nations who exported manufacturing jobs to them. You don't kill the people who owe you money.

The whole problem being: there just is not enough stuff to give everybody in China and India and wherever else a developed country Middle Class lifestyle. Not enough Fossil Fuels, either. The disappearing Middle Class - which trend has been happening in the USA at least for 35+ years, is only postponing the conflict. The resource wars are coming still.

At least, we will have lots of Lower Class cannon fodder, with their skills honed by gaming. Unfortunately, they will be our children and grandchildren, serving the purposes of the 1%.

[Shaved Monkey]

The alternative is a war on the 1%
or the 1% willing giving up some of their wealth when life becomes harder for them to enjoy their wealth because of too many angry starving people with thwarted expectations.

[GregT]

BAU is something that everyone feeds and supports at every step of the chain

Just because you are a corrupt and co-opted disingenuous sleaze who supports BAU doesn't mean that everyone else is the same as you. No doubt the vast majority of people are deeply invested in the status quo just as you are, but there are indeed people out there who don't support the current system and either seek to change things or have escaped from BAU to live off the grid.

The unwashed masses...

Again you are confusing your own situation and your own worldview with that of everyone else. Just because you never bathe does' t mean that no one else does.

It doesn't mean I defend ..... BAU.

Of course you defend BAU. Thats all you do now. Read your own posts sometime.

cheers!

Holy crap Planter. Is that really you? Or did somebody else log in as you?

That is without a doubt the most intelligent post that I have read from you in over 2 years. Keep up the good work girl!

[onlooker]

I just bristle at your cartoon caricature portrait of BAU. It's not as black and white as you make it out to be.

Actually the circumstantial evidence of the reach, power and influence of the elites/oligarchs is easy to access and research. In all the major spheres of human concern, financial and political elites have steered humanity along paths that in hindsight have proven to be detrimental. This is irrespective of the masses reactions to these policies and agenda. Witness, the enshrinement of loaning/debt as a fixture in the global economic system, the incursions and stationing of US military throughout the world, the establishment of organizations that are not beholden to the people of the world but to the corporations and banks. I speak of the WTO, IMF, the World Bank among others. The systemic exploitation of poor countries by rich countries to attain their resources and impose draconian conditions on the ordinary people of those countries. The interference in the political and social processes of many countries by covert means and sometimes outright military intervention primarily by the US and its allies. Also, how governments around the world routinely ignore the wishes and mandates of their citizens. In fact elites exist in every country. Their is not necessarily an active conspiracy going on but what is clear is that they all are aligned by similar goals and agendas of maintaining business as usual so that they can continue to accumulate wealth and power or at least maintain wealth and power as a deviation from business as usual would probably dethrone many of the elites from the high up perch they sit and affect their personal wealth. Make no mistake about it the US is at the center of this "vast and monolithic conspiracy". Why do I quote this phrase because it was uttered in public by former President Kennedy is a great speech which sheds light on this nefarious nexus of politicians, bankers, business leaders and others engaged in maintaining BAU so as to continue their privileged positions of wealth and power. To somehow equate these types of people with ordinary people who not withstanding their faults are saints compared to the mindset of these elites is outright folly and utterly naive.

[Pops]

That the owners have money and power and want to keep both isn't surprising or particularly a secret. That they invest their money and power to that end shouldn't be either. To ascribe them some superhuman power only plays into their hands [...by making them seem invincible nd a vote meaningless.]

They use their money to bait the political hook with stuff they don't particularly care about, or to be blunt, stuff not particularly applicable to them because they possess sufficient funds to operate outside the local jurisdiction. This is where people get tripped up, they root for "their side" even though at the basic level their side is not theirs. I think that is why the blue collar Rs are in crisis, they thought the party was about them but the grand ol party has never been about them, it is the party of the the ownership.

https://ballotpedia.org/2016_presidenti ... s_on_taxes
Every R candidate says owners are oppressed, should pay less tax and be less regulated.
Every D candidate says owners have the upper hand, should pay more tax and be more regulated.

Strip away all the bait and the hook is just that simple. Yeah, it is a class struggle, always has been. The only people who would have you believe class struggle is bad are the people in the upper class. Humans strive, that is what we do, and when we reach the top our urge is to kick over the ladder, that is where government comes in.

Don't get me wrong, other stuff is important, if it is your stuff obviously it can be most important. But don't lose sight of the fact that the core struggle in any society, capitalist or no, is owner vs worker, upper vs lower, management vs labor, have vs have-not.

[onlooker]

Very good reply Pops, I think we sort of agree for the most part.

[Ibon]

Yeah, great prose Pops.....and mostly true...

[Pops]

ThangUVeryMuch!

;^D