[AgentR11]

The problem we have is that we think passing a law of one type or another would result in a change in availability or a change in treating mental illness. Both sides just assume that their idea would actually make something happen.

It won't.

Law or no law, guns will continue to be extremely easy to acquire, and law or no law, they are going to become increasingly easy to acquire over time.

Its already illegal to shoot people, generally speaking.
Its already illegal for a mentally ill person to possess a gun.

He is pictured holding a rifle. Yep. Probably the LAST weapon that any politician, anywhere in the US will ban. At most, if the democrats won house, senate with at least 55/45, and the presidency, they would still only address cosmetic features that make some centerfire rifles look like military rifles. A rifle would still be purchaseable, it would still strike a primer with a firing pin, and splatter whatever person is standing in front of it. If its pink and rosewood stock, with hello kitty printed on the side, nothing changes. bang. dead. (I'm still terrified of showing a pink AR to my wife... I don't care to own one, but dang.... could be a great way to be out $800 or whatever.)

Anway, so to do anything related to rifles that would even address reality, you have to talk about a complete ban, and confiscation of all semi-automatic rifles; and probably all bolt action rifles. Weld a bayonette onto a bolt action rifle, and for these circumstances, zilch changes, same body count, a few probably get skewered instead of shot, but they're dead either way. So you have to pull all hunters and marksman back to single shot designs.

As a republican (and generally shooter of single shot rifles.. lol), nothing would make me happier than to see the Dems go that far.

I've already passed the "test" a few times, I look at an AR10, whose design I love, and then I look at a dual-cpu xeon workstation... and the rifle keeps losing. So I can manage to survive the evil days of Democrats forcing law enforcement to go house to house, to everyone who has ever bought a semiautomatic or bolt action rifle, ransack their homes to collect the guns, and then move to the next house.

Anything short of that does not stop access to guns for school shooters. And doing that is more than enough to ensure the Democrats won't win another election for decades.

So seriously... pretty please.

[Plantagenet]

apey and the other people who are blaming the mass shootings on American culture rather than on the shooters themselves are missing a consistent pattern in what the shooters do in these cases: The Oregon shooter committed suicide. So did the Newtown shooter. It happens over and over again.

The mass shooters aren't rational people reacting in normal ways to the culture around them. The mass shooters are crazy, isolated, depressed, and suicidal people, some of whom are also heavy pot users or have histories of taking prescription psychotropic drugs.

[onlooker]

Plant, you cannot separate the culture from the individual within that culture. Ask yourself why we have an inordinate amount of people like they way you just described. Guns and drugs are simply facilitators. People turn to drugs for reasons, the same way people reject drugs for reasons. Many of the replies here on this topic hint that the underlying culture is in fact to blame. Or at least facets of it.

[jjhman]

I was suprised to see that the Germans have 25 guns per 100 residents. Having spent some time in Germany and having some German friends their attitude towards gun ownership is so far from ours that I that high of ownership doesn't seem possible. I do know that the German government makes it pretty difficult to own a gun and even more difficult to keep one in your residence, much carry one around in public.

[Plantagenet]

Plant, you cannot separate the culture from the individual within that culture.

?????

Of course you can differentiate the culture from the insane impulses and crazy obsessions of mentally ill people living in that culture.

Insane individuals live in a culture but they don't understand or even relate to the culture properly because they are insane. Thats why mentally ill people are sometimes institutionalized or prescribed psychotropic drugs----thats how society protects itself from crazy people and their insane behavior and its also how society tries to protect crazy people from their own insane impulses and crazy urges.

Cheers!

PS: Do I have to add that many mentally ill people are crazy because of some biochemical abnormality in their brain? It usually does't have anything to do with "culture."

[onlooker]

Okay to some degree that is true Planty I admit that. However, I submit to you that our treatment of mental sickness is lacking, in fact their are studies pointing out how anti-depressives are contributing to violent acts both to self and against others. Also, treatment of drug offenders is also horrendous, jailing them and inflicting psychic pain upon them and thus paving the way for a disgruntled and enraged individual who is addicted to drugs to re-enter society. All this is part of our culture also.

[Lore]

This is not as complex an issue as many would make it out to be. While you may have a never ending supply of nut cases, you can certainly limit the availability of their weapons of choice for homicide. Will that stop them form legally owning guns and committing crimes, in a lot of cases no, but in some yes. It's a matter of how much you think a life is worth. You will most likely never know of the lives that were saved.

In the meantime maybe it would be better for a society to concentrate on playing down the violence.

[Plantagenet]

I submit to you that our treatment of mental sickness is lacking, in fact their are studies pointing out how anti-depressives are contributing to violent acts both to self and against others.

Exactly right. I agree 100%.

For instance, the Columbine killers were actually under a psychiatrist's care, and taking prescription psychotropic drugs. Same thing with some of the other mass shooters----they were mentally ill and they'd gone to doctors and the only treatment they received was a prescription for psychotropic drugs.

Cheers!

[Cog]

Yes, I agree but the Swiss see guns as a tool( they do national service and the guns are issued by the government for a specific purpose), rather than as a status symbol.

Exactly, which is what I was saying. Here we view guns as a backup to overthrow our government if it gets out of hand. That being pretty subjective and rather ridiculous on the face of it since we are well past the days of civilian/military equality in armament.

I suggest you and your friends get together and erase the 2nd Amendment. We have a process to amend the Constitution. It shouldn't be that difficult. Go ahead. I need a good laugh.

As far as equality of civilian/military equality in armament goes, turn the military loose on a civilian population armed to the teeth and see what happens. When the fuel stops being delivered and the bases can't operate because the power lines are down, those military units become just guys with rifles. The same rifles that millions of civilians own. I would suggest you rethink who really prevails in such a conflict, even if you could convince the US military to kill US citizens en masse, which I very much doubt.

[Cog]

I've run into a lot of big city liberals over my lifetime and most of what they think they know about guns and people who own guns is sheer ignorance on display. Perhaps its brainwashing they got in school or maybe its movies.

I hang with people who own guns for protection in the home, conceal carry, hunt, target shoot, or just plain want one. The vast majority do not fantasize about killing another human. In fact, they go out of their way to avoid such situations(road rage, flipping people off, etc) since they know how serious the consequences are. If you believe otherwise, you are projecting your own insecurities and rage at life's injustices. I have had liberals tell me that they would never trust themselves with a gun and they just can't imagine anyone else having a gun as they assume everyone is as just like them.

Its not that liberals hate all guns. They certainly don't seem to have a problem with police and military having them. But they do hate people like me having them. I don't vote their way, I'm a Christian, I'm white, and fairly successful in my career. That seems to trigger their feels for some reason.

With the liberal politicians its an entirely different deal. They don't want the populace armed because that doesn't work with their ideas of complete control of the citizenry. People might actually resist a tyranny with force and they can't be having that. If Obama wants to get outraged, he should get outraged over the gangs that kill each constantly over drugs and drug turf. Subtract that particular demographic out and the USA is no more violent than any other modern society. But its much easier to go after me with your egregious rules because you think I am law-abiding and will most likely comply with your rules. Criminals don't have much to lose, the law abiding do.

But liberals shouldn't take too much comfort in their new laws. The amount of non-compliance with new gun laws would astound you. People in Connecticut, New York, and California know that mag limits, guns types, registration schemes, and ammo restrictions aren't really followed by the majority of gun owners. There is a vast world outside Washington DC, where people pretty much just want to be left alone. Push hard enough and the government will find out just how much they want to be left alone.

[dolanbaker]

Yes, I agree but the Swiss see guns as a tool( they do national service and the guns are issued by the government for a specific purpose), rather than as a status symbol.

Exactly, which is what I was saying. Here we view guns as a backup to overthrow our government if it gets out of hand. That being pretty subjective and rather ridiculous on the face of it since we are well past the days of civilian/military equality in armament.

I suggest you and your friends get together and erase the 2nd Amendment. We have a process to amend the Constitution. It shouldn't be that difficult. Go ahead. I need a good laugh.

As far as equality of civilian/military equality in armament goes, turn the military loose on a civilian population armed to the teeth and see what happens. When the fuel stops being delivered and the bases can't operate because the power lines are down, those military units become just guys with rifles. The same rifles that millions of civilians own. I would suggest you rethink who really prevails in such a conflict, even if you could convince the US military to kill US citizens en masse, which I very much doubt.

I have a better solution, I stay away from the US, so I don't need to be surrounded by guns in the hands of individuals who may not be trusted not to use them to shoot random people.

[careinke]

Just what kind of society thinks that it's OK to have more weapons in the hands of the general public than the local militia.

That would be the American Society, based on the second amendment of it's constitution. Written specifically by individuals who did not trust governments. You should read it sometime. It led to a pretty great society, for a while, until big government began taking away individual rights.....

[careinke]

Yes, I agree but the Swiss see guns as a tool( they do national service and the guns are issued by the government for a specific purpose), rather than as a status symbol.

Exactly, which is what I was saying. Here we view guns as a backup to overthrow our government if it gets out of hand. That being pretty subjective and rather ridiculous on the face of it since we are well past the days of civilian/military equality in armament.

Not really, we can't even defeat a bunch of goat herders living in caves. How do you think they would fair against a bunch of pissed of vets practicing asymmetric warfare? Remember it is a hell of lot easier to attack than defend.

[careinke]

I was suprised to see that the Germans have 25 guns per 100 residents. Having spent some time in Germany and having some German friends their attitude towards gun ownership is so far from ours that I that high of ownership doesn't seem possible. I do know that the German government makes it pretty difficult to own a gun and even more difficult to keep one in your residence, much carry one around in public.

You were obviously never a member of the local shooting clubs.

[careinke]

I have a better solution, I stay away from the US, so I don't need to be surrounded by guns in the hands of individuals who may not be trusted not to use them to shoot random people.

I strongly suggest you implement that solution.

[dolanbaker]

I have a better solution, I stay away from the US, so I don't need to be surrounded by guns in the hands of individuals who may not be trusted not to use them to shoot random people.

I strongly suggest you implement that solution.

I have!

[Lore]

Yes, I agree but the Swiss see guns as a tool( they do national service and the guns are issued by the government for a specific purpose), rather than as a status symbol.

Exactly, which is what I was saying. Here we view guns as a backup to overthrow our government if it gets out of hand. That being pretty subjective and rather ridiculous on the face of it since we are well past the days of civilian/military equality in armament.

Not really, we can't even defeat a bunch of goat herders living in caves. How do you think they would fair against a bunch of pissed of vets practicing asymmetric warfare? Remember it is a hell of lot easier to attack than defend.

You obviously have no military background. It's all about command and control and being able to bring assets online. Fit, well trained and equipped troops will always be more than a match for mall ninjas and fat ole vets. The only thing that stops our military from accomplishing its goals are Washington politicians.

[rdberg1957]

The first news stories about these events started in the 1960's with the University of Texas-Austin shooting. It is not the individual alone, nor is it the social backdrop alone which is responsible for such events. It is the interaction between a social system which produces such alienated, angry individuals, the availability of guns, and the individual's desire to get a public stage to seek revenge for perceived wrongs done to them. There are a multitude of factors which likely go into the emergence of such angry individuals, many of whom have severe depression or psychotic disorders. The easy availability of guns is the backdrop for this.

Angry gun owners don't want to acknowledge that there is any price that the society pays for the easy ownership of guns. There are many responsible gun owners, but there are many irresponsible gun owners whose children die because their parents allow access to the weapons. Many of us, some liberal, but some not, are starting to believe that the price is too high. But gun owners who are angry are scary because they won't participate in the democratic process and constructively debate the issues and consider any regulation to be an infringements on their rights. Certainly, via the NRA and more radical groups, they will try and hijack the system and thwart the popular will.

[onlooker]

Rberg good summary of the situation with gun ownership in the US. Yes their is always going to be a certain number of criminally insane people, the easy availability of guns just gives them the tools to carry out their dark fantasies. But like you said Rberg, it is political gridlock in this country. Some states so permissive about gun ownership, others quite the contrary.