[AgentR11]

The "draft" is and always has been controversial in the US. There are a lot of reasons to debate conscription - one aspect of conscription goes very much against the individual freedom concept inherent in America. But the Swiss model for national defense with both universal conscription

Sorry, but that debate is *OVER*. A professional military, with up-or-out promotions, an attainable retirement, and the best possible equipment and training far outperforms a conscript force.

If we want a draft, maybe create something OUTSIDE DoD entirely. Stick it in Justice or Treasury; they like guns too. Have them walk border patrols looking for drugs or something. If later, they want to apply for a position as a marine or soldier, maybe have their time there count towards their 20/30... DO NOT integrate draftees in among a bunch of kids volunteering for military service, learning to fight and defend the interests of the US because that is what they CHOOSE to do.

[Cog]

Military service is entirely what you make up of it. Some stay for 20 and get their pension. Then they apply to civil service and double-dip the system. There are a great number of poor or lower middle class who don't have the money for college or just don't have a lot of opportunity where they live. A good number of them go in, do their four years, and use the GI bill to get a degree or go to a vo-tech school. I wouldn't classify them as losers by going that route.

As far as the officer corp goes, there are some very well-to-do officers who want the adventure and leadership possibilities. Or they are just plain patriotic.

[dinopello]

I didn't realize how aggressive Australia got on gun control after a single mass shooting

But grasping the momentum of ‘never again,’ The National Firearms Agreement banned semi-automatic rifles and shotguns and pump-­action shotguns, and brought in rigid licensing arrangements. An amnesty was declared and the federal government spent $AUD 500 million ­­-- paid for by a special levy -- ­­on buying back weapons suddenly ruled illegal for their market value.

Nearly 1 million guns were purchased by the government and destroyed.

All firearms in Australia must be registered to a licensed owner and stored under strict conditions, separate to ammunition. Obtaining a gun license is onerous, and requires background checks that can take months.

That would never fly in the US. Tax increase to confiscate guns ? Ha!

A whole generation of young Australians is now coming of age having never borne witness to a mass shooting in their own country.

They don’t remember Port Arthur because they weren’t born when a 28­-year-­old with a low IQ stalked through a tourist attraction picking off innocent men, women and children with high-powered weaponry for reasons none of us will ever fathom.

Young adults who have graduated high ­school, can vote, drive and legally drink alcohol (in Australia the drinking age is 18) have never walked on to campus fearing the weirdo from their economics tutorial might turn out to be a gun nut with a death wish.

That’s freedom.

Again, not how we judge freedom in the US. We are free to have a fire fight the gun nut with a death wish with our concealed 9mm. Something those Australians will likely never get to experience any more.

[Ibon]

I'm curious about other forum members' thoughts. And are there any Swiss citizens out there who could perhaps give us an insider's perspective of the Swiss and guns?

My first wife was Swiss and I lived in Switzerland 10 years in the 8'0's, learned to speak Swiss German fluently and was quite integrated with my first wife's rural Swiss family. In the 10 years living there I had quite a few Swiss friends who spoke about their Swiss military experience. So I can speak to this topic with some knowledge.

At 18 you start your mandatory military training which is an initial period I think of 9 months and then every year afterwards for 3 weeks until you reach your late 40's. You can opt out doing civilian service like working in hospitals. This military service is looked upon as kind of a joke today by most Swiss and really hasn't had much relevancy any more since the end of the cold war. Maybe now with rising immigrants there might be some interest in defending borders once again. The training is almost exclusively around defense of the homeland. Swiss culture is very disciplined to start with and quite regimented and every citizen is registered in the municipality where they live so there is high transparency of everyone's where abouts and high levels of discipline in the culture. Very low unemployment, quite well developed social programs where drug addicts can pick up their heroin at state run dispensaries. Very little crime. The biggest crime in Switzerland today is committed by recent immigrants and very little using hand guns. Most of the gun deaths in Switzerland are suicides or marriage or family disputes.

In the 10 years I lived there and in all my friends and colleagues homes I visited I never saw the military guns held in residence. It was really never a topic brought up. Interest in hand guns and guns in general is very low in the population and everyone is pretty content with their domestic government and is not worried about subjects like a strong citizen militia to protect against domestic tyranny. The Swiss look upon Americans in this regard as relics from some wild west past and really have nothing comparable in their culture.

It's hard to therefore make any kind of apples to apples comparison with the US when you have a base population socialized in such contrasting ways. For this reason you can't draw many conclusions if the military service and having military guns stored in every males closet really has an impact on crime and proper use of fire arms.

I hope this info is somewhat helpful.

[AgentR11]

As far as the officer corp goes, there are some very well-to-do officers who want the adventure and leadership possibilities. Or they are just plain patriotic.

Or its described to them as teens as an entry point to political office.
addendum... guess you kinda include that in "leadership possibilities"

[Cog]

As far as the officer corp goes, there are some very well-to-do officers who want the adventure and leadership possibilities. Or they are just plain patriotic.

Or its described to them as teens as an entry point to political office.
addendum... guess you kinda include that in "leadership possibilities"

Sure. It never hurts to have that on a political resume. At least in the Republican party it doesn't.

[hvacman]

Thanks Ibon, those are great insights. I've known a couple of Swiss - my first impression was they were very financially conservative - as in saving every penny, negotiating for hard bargains with everything, avoiding debt at all cost. They were self-aware of it, though, and chuckled about their tight-fisted ways, even making a point of wincing when out to eat if they had to pay another 25 cents for the cheese on a cheeseburger! And they all LOVED to hike. Must be the national past time. We never talked about the military or firearms aspects of Swiss life.

But still, their culture demonstrates that having firearms in the house - owning them - is not the driving universal prime cause for gun violence. Culture is a huge factor. And THAT is the driving question that the US actually needs to be struggling with - what is going on in our CULTURE that we have all this violence and mass shootings? But the answers to that question may not be the answers we want to hear, so perhaps that is why we look for "common sense" simple solutions, like additional ownership regulation, without adjustments in the items that drive the murderous culture.

And regarding the Swiss and their current lack of interest in their own military service - a meltdown of the EU, a slow withdrawal of the US military shield from Europe, and a rise in Russian aggression may put them back into being more interested in re-sharpening the porcupine quills they bristled in WWII. The Swiss have been famously neutral, self-reliant, and fiercely defensive for centuries - they may find the need to re-assert that tradition.

[dinopello]

I think it is mostly the culture. The US has made guns big business, promoted to the ego in a way that would make Edward Bernays proud. What, you don't have a 100 round drum clip - what kind of wussy are you ? Crazy people pick up on that and choose to make a name for themselves. That, and the fear I already mentioned. There are people in the US, who literally feel they must carry a weapon with them everywhere they go to feel safe enough to venture out. Ask a Swiss if they have those people that aren't in a mental institution.

What would happen in a pro gun town if a group of brownish Americans sporting Keffiyehs walked into Walmart exerting their constitutional right to open carry? Mulford Act?

[Cog]

Can you name a single mass shooter that used a 100 round magazine? And yes its called a magazine not a clip. Clips are for M-1 Garands and those hold 8 rounds. LOL

Ask me how I know that you know nothing about guns.

[AgentR11]

dino... Mulford act is in CA only, an extremely anti-gun state for the most part.

In Texas, we in fact have had a group of mostly african americans that do periodically, for reasons of their own, take up rifles, loaded'n'live, and march publicly. Nothing interesting happens. They carry their weapons safely, according to the law, and are less dangerous to the public than I am in my minivan.

Doesn't bother me in the slightest.

[dinopello]

Can you name a single mass shooter that used a 100 round magazine? And yes its called a magazine not a clip. Clips are for M-1 Garands and those hold 8 rounds. LOL

Ask me how I know that you know nothing about guns.

How do you think I know nothing about guns ?

I do understand why you don't know the details of the massacres - because it doesn't matter to you - that's fine.

The 100 round drum mag is not a good choice for a mass killing anyway due to its propensity to malfunction after killing a dozen or so theatre goers. But, in America we believe people should have that choice, and crazies like to be all showy. It's the culture. Especially if they go to all the trouble of dressing up like the Joker.

Agent- ha that's a good one.

[Cog]

Heh you got me there Dino.

And no it doesn't matter to me what he used.

[Apneaman]

2-YEAR-OLD GETS GUN, SHOOTS GRANDMOTHER IN SOUTH CAROLINA


http://6abc.com/news/2-year-old-gets-gu ... a/1029502/

[Cog]

2-YEAR-OLD GETS GUN, SHOOTS GRANDMOTHER IN SOUTH CAROLINA


http://6abc.com/news/2-year-old-gets-gu ... a/1029502/

Granny was making a furtive move and he had to get it on.

[onlooker]

Careful AP, you may be creating some sanity momentum in this country with that post haha.