[ennui2]

Nope, it's still a democracy because the public have been sold on the merits of trickle-down economics.

They don't like the veil being lifted (see the Romney campaign) but they still believe that what's good for big business is good for america. Hence drill, baby, drill and no regulation and dismantle the welfare state (as long as it doesn't take away MY benefits).

[onlooker]

Absolutely true Dohboi. FF and our natural proclivities both reinforcing and magnifying each other. Before FF, at least other considerations as well as natural limitations kept the appetites of societies fairly in check. Even so Empires arose. I think as long as humans exist they will be studying the propensity for power and greed so evident throughout our history. Maybe it is true the adage that states " Only when the power of love becomes stronger than the love of power will wars end" I would add the love of wealth together with power. Then afterwards we can focus on loving life and this miracle that is Nature and the Universe.

[dohboi]

I didn't mean to be overly reductionist when I pointed out the triggering effect of ffs.

The western powers had, after all, already set up the first global empires using mostly wind power and gun powder (yeah, and germs and steel...I did read the damn book! )

So the cultures of Western Europe were primed ready and eager to access a form of energy that could help extend their already obviously voracious appetite for power even further. All of this connect to a deeper history, that I can't go into right now--the Oscars are on, after all!!

[dohboi]

en, I'm not sure I follow your logic: It's a democracy as long as people think it is?

Sooo, is there no global warming as long as people remain in denial about it??

[onlooker]

If Reverant wins the best picture award, I think I will watch it.

[ennui2]

en, I'm not sure I follow your logic: It's a democracy as long as people think it is?

People vote. Their candidate wins. It's a democracy. If people have allowed themselves to be brainwashed by those with ulterior motives, that's their own fault. It's not like running down the street trying to tell them they've been brainwashed to vote against their best interests will change their viewpoints.

...is there no global warming as long as people remain in denial about it??

That's off-topic. We're talking about politics, not climate science.

I think the problems we're facing could use a dose of technocracy (the best legacy of Hubbert, not his curve). I guess I'm an intellectual elitist when it comes to that. But most people are illiterate and short-sighted and they vote accordingly. No amount of sweater-speeches on the part of liberal-leaning presidents will change that.

[dohboi]

???

People voted in the Soviet Union, and a candidate always won. So by your criterion you would consider it to have been a democracy, then??

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... lic-unive/

America is an oligarchy, not a democracy or republic, university study finds

Please do take a moment to peruse the article. I think you may find it...enlightening.

A couple points: "economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy"

“When a majority of citizens disagrees with economic elites and/or with organized interests, they generally lose.”

[Subjectivist]

Hey remember USSR stands for United Soviet Socialist Republic and the PRC stands for the People's Republic of China. A Republic can be any government where a small elected body rules for the good of all.

Kind of like the United States of America was designed to be a constitutional Republic where a small percentage of the population was allowed to vote for the small number of Representatives who make our laws.

[ennui2]

People voted in the Soviet Union, and a candidate always won. So by your criterion you would consider it to have been a democracy, then??

That's an absurd comparison. And one study making a pronouncement does not a conclusion make, even though it may confirm your narrative.

economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy

I am well versed in the notion of corporate influence in governement, things like Citizen's United, etc... I do not, however, feel that the public have been coerced into this against their will as much as they are complicit.

If enough people really wanted to see big changes, we'd see them. Third parties, whatever. They keep doubling down on the two-party system and the status quo.

The fact the public would rally behind an idiot like Trump as a sort of demi-protest candidate is symptomatic of voter dysfunction.

[clif]

If enough people really wanted to see big changes, we'd see them.

and

is symptomatic of voter dysfunction.

Kinda contradictory there.


Isn't herr t-Rump a big change??????????

Even bigger than the puppet Reagan was?

[clif]

AGW hysteria and ignoring planetary resource limits?

You have too much faith in the resource limits kicking in before the bad feedbacks of AGW do.

Me, not so much, with tar sands, fracking and coal to gas available to keep BAU going.

[onlooker]

I am well versed in the notion of corporate influence in governement, things like Citizen's United, etc... I do not, however, feel that the public have been coerced into this against their will as much as they are complicit.

If enough people really wanted to see big changes, we'd see them. Third parties, whatever. They keep doubling down on the two-party system and the status quo.

How little you appreciate Ennui the intricacies of subtle mind control and the actual limited choices we have as well as the voracious appetite for power and wealth of the elites. Your a smart guy Ennui but you have totally decided to ignore the indications of the level of control of societies. From decisions being made completely beyond the purview of what the Constitution allows, to the total control and manipulation effected via our education system, our media and distractions such as TV having a nefarious influence on our intellect as well as being a tool to subtly make us willing consumers. But you will say we choose this consumerist society, which superficially is true. What we did not chose is the structure and makeup of this society. That was done for us. That was done by a nexus of govt and corporations exerting undue influence upon an unsuspecting public and a vulnerable political system. You see we are totally guilty us grunts of being ignorant and apathetic while financial vested interests came to gain ever more power within the political sphere. They're were no checks and balances the power of money has completely distorted any sense of that. What we have now is a ruthless oligarchy, plutocracy, kleptocracy. Our role if you continue to wish to look at the masses was to be compliant pawns in their game. Compliant is not the same as complicit. Compliant presupposes a level of powerlessness along with some vulnerabilities such as greed and ignorance etc. That is not the same as saying we intentionally sought to create this particular set of circumstances that now describe our American society and much of the world.

[onlooker]

I would add one of our own Montequest, with a keen scientific mind and thus not open to crazy tinfoil, wrote a book about this elite influence and potent control. Or better yet look at our murdered President Kennedy who warned of the "Monolithic and Ruthless conspiracy" Sorry to go totally off topic just responding to a post.

[Cog]

I would add one of our own Montequest, with a keen scientific mind and thus not open to crazy tinfoil, wrote a book about this elite influence and potent control. Or better yet look at our murdered President Kennedy who warned of the "Monolithic and Ruthless conspiracy" Sorry to go totally off topic just responding to a post.

What happened to Monte? Taking another vacation?

[onlooker]

He is probably waiting for worse symptoms from peak oil to manifest. I get the sense he is a patient guy.

[Ibon]

Every one of us has a choice how to spend their time in this long drawn out episode of madness we are currently witnessing, this period before external events finally create enough destabilizing forces to bring us to our knees. So what do you choose?

I think it is an immense waste of time frankly to be overly concerned with the current dysfunction and speculating on what conspiracies those in power may or may not be executing. The reason being of course that the current model provides very little in the way of transitioning forward. Why over examine something broken and of flawed design? By doing so you are staying in relationship to it.

There is the saying "To be in it but not of it" I think this is relevant. We all have to go about our daily lives and interact with what is dysfunctional and broken so in this sense we all have "to be in it" . Knowing as we do the nature of the broken beast however allows us to "not be of it"

Part of "not being of it" is an attitude shift. Years ago when there was still time to mitigate there was a legitimate and sound reason to engage the status quo. I would argue that we are past that point.

I think this causes many of us to retreat into our local spaces, the big picture is broken, too late to mitigate, and what becomes relevant as we wait out the denial and events to come is to focus on family and friends and our immediate physical community.

I have so little interest anymore in discussions. I would rather walk in the woods.

[onlooker]

Ibon, I think I get what your getting at but your phrase "Knowing as we do the nature of the broken beast however allows us to "not be of it" " is not the case for everyone here. I think some here are still to "of it" in not recognizing or wishing to recognize just how dysfunctional everything is right now. People point to a "glut" in oil or how our economy is sort of marching along okay. That is intellectually dishonest. But yeah I will stop because it is just a matter of degrees and as you said why dwell on how we got here. I just feel like you that we have to disavow the way this world is fully for the sake of society at large and even for our own mental well being. Having said that I do not mean going to the woods and living like a mountain man but recognizing that pretty much all that is being done and not done is making things worse now.

[dohboi]

en, it's not just one study. Many very prominent researchers have concluded that extreme financial inequality radically diminishes the possibility for anything close to real democracy: Amartya Sen (Noble Prize winner) and Thomas Picketty, among the most prominent.

You might not want to hear the news, but that does not make it less true.

Here's a longer piece on the latest study, though: http://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cass ... -oligarchy

“In the United States, our findings indicate, the majority does not rule—at least not in the causal sense of actually determining policy outcomes.

When a majority of citizens disagrees with economic elites and/or with organized interests, they generally lose.

Moreover … even when fairly large majorities of Americans favor policy change, they generally do not get it.”

So far, I have offered studies, sources, authorities, and cogent (if I may say so) argumentation.

You have offered...incredulity.

Can you do better than that?

[ennui2]

I think it is an immense waste of time frankly to be overly concerned with the current dysfunction and speculating on what conspiracies those in power may or may not be executing.

This^^^

It's funny how someone like Cid in particular spends half his time talking about how the world's going to suffer a massive malthusian catastrophe and the other half of his time falling back to traditional ultra-left-wing sniping. It's just a way for some people to kill time.

We've met the enemy and he is us, period. That encompasses politics as well as ecology.