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Man, I wish the USA was more like this!

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Re: Man, I wish the USA was more like this!

Unread postby Triffin » Mon 12 Sep 2005, 20:35:41

Spent fuel rods = MOX reactor fuel


Other Countries Recycle Nuclear "Waste" to Produce Electricity

Daily Policy Digest

Federal Spending & The Budget

Wednesday, November 28, 2001


Spent nuclear fuel rods from commercial and research reactors should not be viewed as "waste" to be entombed for millennia at the Yucca Mountain Repository, says the Nevada Policy Research Institute. Instead, the rods should be a commodity bought and sold in the marketplace.

The Department of Energy's long-term storage program is decades behind schedule, while other countries are using this clean-fuel source.


The reprocessing of spent nuclear fuel is banned under an executive order issued in the 1970s by President Jimmy Carter -- however, both France and the United Kingdom are successfully reprocessing nuclear fuel.
In those countries, rods are treated through a chemical process and made into mixed-oxide (MOX) fuel, which is "burned" in nuclear reactors -- dramatically reducing both the volume and radioactivity of the final waste material.
A new nuclear power plant that uses only MOX fuel is to be constructed in Japan by 2007, according to Richard Rhodes and Denis Beller, writing in Foreign Affairs.
And Russia (which has been recycling fuel rods for 25 years) will soon begin importing 20,000 tons of used nuclear fuel from other countries to reprocess for use in commercial reactors.
Lifting the ban on reprocessing would not instantly create a domestic market, because uranium prices are relatively low today -- it now costs less per kilowatt to operate a nuclear power plant than any other kind. However, a growing share of the world's electricity comes from nuclear power and uranium's price is expected to rise.

Thus a better use for the nearly $10 billion left in the Nuclear Waste Fund, which is funding Yucca Mountain, would be to disperse it to the entities now holding used nuclear fuel in order to develop reprocessing plants and MOX reactors.

Source: D. Dowd Muska, "Spare the Rods: The Free-Market Alternative to the Yucca Mountain Repository," November 2001, Nevada Policy Research Institute, 2077 E. Sahara Avenue, Las Vegas, Nev. 89104, (702) 222-0642.



Here in the good 'ol USA instead of doing something
sensible with spend fuel rod assemblies per above ..
We're gonna store it in under Yucca Mtn .. Or pawn
it off on a Utah Indian tribe 8O 8O

http://www.privatefuelstorage.com/proje ... s-svb.html

Triff ..
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Re: Man, I wish the USA was more like this!

Unread postby jaws » Mon 12 Sep 2005, 22:19:53

How did I miss a France circle-jerk?

No one has mentionned that they are going to completely privatize their highway system sometime this year, meaning the government will no longer be subsidizing car travel.

ITER is going to come online sometime in the next decade, right in the harsh part of peak oil. That will provide abundant electricity for all of the EU, if the price is right. Not windy enough to keep Germany warm? Have some electricity courtesy of les frogs!
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Re: Man, I wish the USA was more like this!

Unread postby Devil » Tue 13 Sep 2005, 07:12:47

jaws wrote:No one has mentionned that they are going to completely privatize their highway system sometime this year, meaning the government will no longer be subsidizing car travel.

ITER is going to come online sometime in the next decade, right in the harsh part of peak oil. That will provide abundant electricity for all of the EU, if the price is right. Not windy enough to keep Germany warm? Have some electricity courtesy of les frogs!


What the hell are you talking about?

1. The French government has never subsidised car travel. They may have bled motorists dry in swingeing fuel taxes and highway tolls, though. Believe me, motorists have paid for the highway system many times over. Furthermore, the highways in France are relatively car-free outside the conurbations because it is cheaper to take the TGV for long distances.

2. ITER is not scheduled to produce any electricity. It is an experiment to see whether it is possible to extract more energy out of it than is put into it. Even if your hypothesis were the case, it would not produce abundant electricity for more than a small town. "The whole of the EU" is just downright stupid.

Get your facts right before posting, please. :)
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Re: Man, I wish the USA was more like this!

Unread postby born2respawn » Tue 13 Sep 2005, 15:13:04

While everyone's eulogising about France's nuclear power, they should remember they're vulnerable to weather as well. France lost a lot of it's nuclear generation capacity a few summers ago when Europe was hit by a massive heat wave: rivers (used for cooling, as I remember) ran low and they had to ease off the nuclear power plants.

I find the EU's proposition of "negawatts" far more practical, perhaps put some money in to the only just being developed tidal and wave potential of Europe as well.
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Re: Man, I wish the USA was more like this!

Unread postby deconstructionist » Tue 13 Sep 2005, 15:28:13

gg3 wrote:We have spent 200 billion dollars ($200,000,000,000.00) per year, total presently over $400 billion, on the Iraq quagmire, clinging to the old paradigm. The United States government could have *given that money away* to the utilities to build nuclear reactors and windfarms, and it would have translated into 400 gigawatts of electric power ($1-million per megawatt for nuclear and wind).

i cannot tell you how much i agree with your overall premise and how mad it makes me to see us NOT investing in alternative forms of electricity generation. however, to the above stateemt that i quoted i have this response:

if we did not spend that rediculous sum of money on the war in iraq, the oil markets may have been opened up to trading in euros, causing the obliteration of the value of the dollar. then that 400 billion spent on wind energy development would not buy nearly as much. now if we were spending on the war and at the same time building an alternative energy future so that we could eventually stop making war... that would be a bit nicer twist on an unarguably horrible story...
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Re: Man, I wish the USA was more like this!

Unread postby jaws » Wed 14 Sep 2005, 00:57:07

Devil wrote:What the hell are you talking about?

1. The French government has never subsidised car travel. They may have bled motorists dry in swingeing fuel taxes and highway tolls, though. Believe me, motorists have paid for the highway system many times over. Furthermore, the highways in France are relatively car-free outside the conurbations because it is cheaper to take the TGV for long distances.
Any public road is subsidized car travel since money had to be taxed to build the road. Doesn't matter if it was gas taxes or income taxes. So maybe I was exaggerating, they will no longer subsidize car travel on highways, only on regular roads.
2. ITER is not scheduled to produce any electricity. It is an experiment to see whether it is possible to extract more energy out of it than is put into it. Even if your hypothesis were the case, it would not produce abundant electricity for more than a small town. "The whole of the EU" is just downright stupid.
Well what do you think they wanted the prototype so bad for? To decorate the place? No, they want to build a lot of the things with ITER's technology once they get it to work.
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Re: Man, I wish the USA was more like this!

Unread postby rogerhb » Wed 14 Sep 2005, 01:02:40

The French railways, especially TGV, are great. Take a rail trip from London to Paris and you know which country you are in from the speed!

The UK's APT was a disaster!
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Re: Man, I wish the USA was more like this!

Unread postby CS » Wed 14 Sep 2005, 06:18:25

An anonymous Deconstructionist wrote:if we did not spend that rediculous sum of money on the war in iraq, the oil markets may have been opened up to trading in euros, causing the obliteration of the value of the dollar. then that 400 billion spent on wind energy development would not buy nearly as much. now if we were spending on the war and at the same time building an alternative energy future so that we could eventually stop making war... that would be a bit nicer twist on an unarguably horrible story...


you make it sound like electricity will solve all of the problems of PO, what use is electricity if there is nothing to use it in, plus the national grid requires a hell of alot of maintaince,likewise with power plants,wouldn't that money be best spent in education,reducing the need for transportation(smaller self suficent communities)alternate food growing techniques( minus the cemical injection) etc. i know atleast we'll have electric cars, but were are going to go, the mall, mc'ds?
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Re: Man, I wish the USA was more like this!

Unread postby rogerhb » Wed 14 Sep 2005, 06:27:18

CS wrote:
deconstructionist wrote:if we did not spend that rediculous sum of money on the war in iraq, the oil markets may have been opened up to trading in euros, causing the obliteration of the value of the dollar


... and don't forget to honour the dead by sending more.

edit: Added extra quotes :-D
Last edited by rogerhb on Wed 14 Sep 2005, 07:01:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Man, I wish the USA was more like this!

Unread postby CS » Wed 14 Sep 2005, 06:55:53

that first paragraph was supposed to be a quote from deconstructionist
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Re: Man, I wish the USA was more like this!

Unread postby Z » Wed 14 Sep 2005, 07:17:13

France is now in a slow state of social and political disintegration. I don't think we will be the 'center of civilization' anytime.
Freedom is up to the length of the chain.
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Re: Man, I wish the USA was more like this!

Unread postby rogerhb » Wed 14 Sep 2005, 07:21:01

Z wrote:France is now in a slow state of social and political disintegration. I don't think we will be the 'center of civilization' anytime.


Mais, on le brightside, pas de LePenn a cote de le helm. Est ce que il mort?
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Re: Man, I wish the USA was more like this!

Unread postby rogerhb » Wed 14 Sep 2005, 07:23:43

Z wrote:I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.


I was told that "le petit mort" meant something quite different :roll:
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Re: Man, I wish the USA was more like this!

Unread postby Z » Wed 14 Sep 2005, 07:43:36

rogerhb wrote:Mais, on le brightside, pas de LePenn a cote de le helm. Est ce que il mort?


Le Pen is old but still alive. He will probably run for the presidency in 2007.
Freedom is up to the length of the chain.
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Re: Man, I wish the USA was more like this!

Unread postby rogerhb » Wed 14 Sep 2005, 07:47:14

Z wrote:Le Pen is old but still alive. He will probably run for the presidency in 2007.


Sacre bleu!

Excuse moi, mon francais de un garcon d'ecole. :-D
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Re: Man, I wish the USA was more like this!

Unread postby mermaid » Wed 14 Sep 2005, 08:06:48

nuclear powerplants, the fuel needed for these plants is not eternally usable, it is only 1 time recycleable and then it is waste, useless but dangerous. there is a way of putting it in the ground under saltlayers, but out of sight out of mind?!

and how about the worldstock uranium? it is also a natural source and able to runout....does anyone know how much uranium there is in the world? because I've heard that only 0.3% of it is suitable for powerplants?!

and i don't believe in meltproof, a mistake is made quickly, in Chernobyl they also said nothing could happen...Image
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Re: Man, I wish the USA was more like this!

Unread postby Starvid » Wed 14 Sep 2005, 10:58:02

mermaid wrote:nuclear powerplants, the fuel needed for these plants is not eternally usable, it is only 1 time recycleable and then it is waste, useless but dangerous. there is a way of putting it in the ground under saltlayers, but out of sight out of mind?!

Reprocessing the fuel means it is used more efficeintly. I can't remember the exact number but it is something like 10-50 % more efficient. It can't be reprocessed forever though.
On the issue of deep geological storage, such a thing is possible, but I don't think saltlayers are being considered anymore.
By the way, IIRC, reprocessing reduces the volume of high level waste quite a lot.

mermaid wrote:and how about the worldstock uranium? it is also a natural source and able to runout....does anyone know how much uranium there is in the world? because I've heard that only 0.3% of it is suitable for powerplants?!

The world uranium supplies are discussed in this thread. http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic11541.html

Only 0,6 % of uranium (U-235) is suitable for light water reactors. The rest is mainly U-238 (depleted uranium) which is not fissionable. Luckily, there is something called the Fast Breeder Reactor, which can use U-238. The use of breeder reactors in effect make uranium supplies unlimited. Breeders are not used today because they aren't profitable at todays low uranium prices and will not likely be depolyed in a large scale for several decades.

mermaid wrote:and i don't believe in meltproof, a mistake is made quickly, in Chernobyl they also said nothing could happen...Image

Chernobyl was a stupid ass design incorporating for example a positive void coefficient, which means as core temperatures rise the effect also rises, triggering a runaway temperature rise - resulting in meltdown. This happened in Chernobyl.

Western reactors have a negative void coeffiecient meaning the reaction shuts itself down. Even if a meltdown happens the containment structure will stop any radiation release to the environment. This is what happened at Three Mile Island.

The next generation reactors will use natural forces like gravity or convection to cool the reactor in an emergency. This mean that there are no pumps that can fail, causing a meltdown like that at Three Mile Island.
Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
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Re: Man, I wish the USA was more like this!

Unread postby Devil » Wed 14 Sep 2005, 12:21:33

mermaid wrote:nuclear powerplants, the fuel needed for these plants is not eternally usable, it is only 1 time recycleable and then it is waste, useless but dangerous. there is a way of putting it in the ground under saltlayers, but out of sight out of mind?!

and how about the worldstock uranium? it is also a natural source and able to runout....does anyone know how much uranium there is in the world? because I've heard that only 0.3% of it is suitable for powerplants?!

and i don't believe in meltproof, a mistake is made quickly, in Chernobyl they also said nothing could happen...


Draft http://www.cypenv.org/Files/nuclearfuel.htm
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Re: Man, I wish the USA was more like this!

Unread postby Caoimhan » Wed 14 Sep 2005, 12:24:23

I suggest that we all take another look at the concept of a breeder reactor. There are a lot of people, it seems, who think they know what a breeder reactor is, but don't really. I recommend that EVERYONE go back for a review:

HERE is a good place to start (a very easy to understand article for laymen).
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Re: Man, I wish the USA was more like this!

Unread postby Petrodollar » Wed 14 Sep 2005, 17:10:02

Deconstructionist,
Please note: The global community does not want the US econony to collapse. Yes, the EU wants to buy oil in euros, and we can't destoy the euro unless we attack the whole EU, that is why a multilateral compromise is desperately needed re global monetary reform and a dual-currency oil transaction system (potentally three currencies when China's RNB becomes a convertible currency). What the global community desperately wants is for us to be responsible, productive citizens and good customers, not a militant empire intent on invading other countries to control the world's oil supply.

History has shown that opposing geopolitical alliances will form when an empire begins excessive military adventurism, and the openly stated neoconservative goal of US global domination will naturally be resisted by other powerful nations. The following quote summarized the risks inherent to neoconservative doctrine:

"One of the dirty little secrets of today’s international order is that the rest of the globe could topple the United States from its hegemonic status whenever they so choose with a concerted abandonment of the dollar standard. This is America’s preeminent, inescapable Achilles Heel for now and the foreseeable future.

That such a course hasn’t been pursued to date bears more relation to the fact that other Westernized, highly developed nations haven’t any interest to undergo the great disruptions which would follow — but it could assuredly take place in the event that the consensus view coalesces of the United States as any sort of ‘rogue’ nation. In other words, if the dangers of American global hegemony are ever perceived as a greater liability than the dangers of toppling the international order. The Bush administration and the neoconservative movement has set out on a multiple-front course to ensure that this cannot take place, in brief by a graduated assertion of military hegemony atop the existent economic hegemony."

- Anonymous former US government employee

So, here's some ideas that would prop-up the dollar, b/c the world community would support these types of policies...(exerts from the book)

The US, as the most voracious energy consumer, is the only nation that could provide global leadership in pursuing the development and implementation of energy alternatives. Along with a rejection of the “preventative war” or “Bush doctrine,” this would do much to repair its international image. Ideally, such efforts should begin immediately.

Robert Freeman eloquently wrote that only “energy reconfiguration” can save America from devolving into despotism. His essay, “Will the End of Oil Mean the End of America?” offered several specific policy recommendations that symbolized the sacrifices we must soon undertake if America is to pursue a concerted effort to enhance our national security, and preserve our freedom:

"Energy reconfiguration means retrofitting all of the nation’s buildings, both commercial and residential, to double their energy efficiency. It means a crash program to shift the transportation system — cars, trucks — to a basis that uses perhaps half as much oil per year. This is well within reach of current technology .... It means refitting industrial and commercial processes — lighting, heating, appliances, automation, etc. — so that they, too, consume far less energy than they do today. It means increasing efficiency, reducing consumption, and building sustainable, long-term alternatives in every arena in which the economy uses oil."

As for the US, an aggressive 5-year roll-out of 35 mpg Corporate Average Fuel Efficiency (CAFÉ) standards for all automobiles (including light trucks) would be a tremendous investment enhancing its national security. Writing for the Austin Chronicle, Michael Ventura advocated transitioning to a rail-based system, and made the astute observation that our ability – or inability – to quickly dismantle our military empire in exchange for enacting energy reconfiguration, will likely determine the fate of the US dollar in the new century.

"One key to America’s future will be: How quickly can we build or rebuild heavy and light rail? And where will we get the money to do it? Railroads are the cheapest transport, the easiest to sustain...There’s only one section of our economy that has that kind of money: the military budget. The U.S. now spends more on its military than all other nations combined. A sane transit to a post-automobile American will require a massive shift from military to infrastructure spending. That shift would be supported by our bankers in China and Europe (that is, they would continue to finance our debt) because it’s in their interests that we regain economic viability. What’s not in their interests is that we remain a military superpower."

Americans should harbor no illusions that, with the current campaign finance structure, it will be exceedingly difficult to enhance national security, given the powerful military and energy conglomerates who “invest” hundreds of millions in cash to political campaigns every election in order to purchase politicians in both parties. This system will have to yield to a more workable system that places humanity above political ideology and power. Considering all suppliers report that current oil production is running “flat out,” the world may have arrived at a plateau. Neither the US nor the global community is prepared for such a reality.

Following the peaking of domestic oil production in 1971 and the oil shocks of the 1970s, the US should have spent much of the past 25 years preparing for global Peak Oil. A second historic opportunity was lost in the aftermath 9/11, when, if under real leadership, the American people could have become united in the patriotic pursuit of conserving energy and seeking energy alternatives to strengthen our national security. Unfortunately that tragedy was exploited to introduce another upon the world — the unprovoked invasion subsequent occupation of Iraq.

Despite this substantial setback, Americans must have realistic faith in ourselves and believe that we can adjust to the challenges of Peak Oil, or we will certainly fail. We need a visionary leader to define America’s new role and work together toward realizing that vision.

Multilateralism and extraordinary international energy reform in the post–Peak Oil era is the key to global stability in the 21st century. In his book on Peak Oil, Hubbert’s Peak: The Impending World Oil Shortage, Kenneth Deffeyes warned his readers:

"This much is certain: no initiative put in place starting today can have a substantial effect on the peak production year. No Caspian Sea exploration, no drilling in the South China Sea, no SUV replacements, no renewable energy projects can be brought on at a sufficient rate to avoid a bidding war for the remaining oil. At least, let’s hope that the war is waged with cash instead of with nuclear warheads."
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