[HamRadioRocks]

I can't imagine how more than a few percent of the US population can live without a car. Not everyone can live in downtown Chicago, downtown New York City, or downtown Washington DC.

[Loki]

I am not a car share member, but people around here that are swear by it. We have Flexcar and Zipcar. I guess it all depends on how often you use it.

I priced out Flexcar a couple years ago and it was significantly more than holding onto my old paid-for beater. But I don't drive around town much. Most of my driving is out of town. Flexcar charges by the hour. To drive to my aunt and uncle's place 50 miles away and spend the night or to go camping in the mountains for the weekend was not even close to cost effective. As I said earlier, my whole reason for having a vehicle is so I can flee the city on occasion. Flexcar is no good for this. It's primarily designed for people who drive in the city and who would otherwise be paying $200+ in new car payments. This is not me.

Flexcar also kind of annoys me because they get city subsidies in the form of free parking spots downtown, even though they are a for-profit corporation that only wealthier people can afford. I see the same jerk parking right in front of city hall everyday--Flexcar and the city encourage this guy to drive downtown to work everyday, despite the fact that there are extensive public transportation options. Last I checked the city won't pay for the many pairs of boots I wear out walking to work everyday, and the bus fares seem to be jacked up at least once a month. Thankfully, I think Flexcar is finally getting cut off from the public teat. About time.

[EndOfSewers]

46 bucks a month, for full coverage insurance? Where do you live?

SK, Canada. The basic package includes a $700 deductible, collision, theft, etc and a few hundred grand liability. It helps that my car is old, an equivalent new car would be about twice as much to insure.

[oowolf]

Totally carless since May 1997, and I live in rural Montana. Any food I might need I have shipped UPS or buy from local Mennonites.
I buy and sell on the internet and don't even own a computer-or phone-I use a Bill Gates-donated computer at the nearest library (a 13 mile round trip walk). I get an up close and personal view of the many animals slaughtered by stupid, ask-me-if-I-care car drivers. And I can live on less than $100/month.

The best thing is the awareness that I'm not dumping 20 pounds of CO2-into the only atmosphere we've got-for every gallon of gas burned. Also the sense of superiority I get from not allowing myself to be scammed into wasting money for bogus licenses and not having to pay extortion to the insurance mafia, freedom from dragging thousands of pounds of worthless scrap metal and plastic with me everywhere I go. Also, I don't allow reptillian ad-agencies to conflate my sense of worth with petroindustrial civilization's ugly machines of death.

I hope I live long enough to see every fossil-fueled powered vehicle rendered useless.

[dinopello]

I priced out Flexcar a couple years ago and it was significantly more than holding onto my old paid-for beater. But I don't drive around town much. Most of my driving is out of town. Flexcar charges by the hour. To drive to my aunt and uncle's place 50 miles away and spend the night or to go camping in the mountains for the weekend was not even close to cost effective.

Yep, people need to do what works for them. My last housemate didn't have a car for the 3 years she lived with me, and I think she only borrowed mine twice. She would take the metro to the airport and rent a car for weekend trips to her family.

Flexcar also kind of annoys me because they get city subsidies in the form of free parking spots downtown, even though they are a for-profit corporation that only wealthier people can afford. I see the same jerk parking right in front of city hall everyday--Flexcar and the city encourage this guy to drive downtown to work everyday, despite the fact that there are extensive public transportation options. Last I checked the city won't pay for the many pairs of boots I wear out walking to work everyday, and the bus fares seem to be jacked up at least once a month.

I think we have noticed that people who have access to carshare are more willing to give up their car and the net result is less driving and therefore less need for parking in more walkable (urban) areas. The numbers and surveys support this and therefore there is a public benefit. The issue of gov providing that *free* space will come up here though too. If they are making profit then they can afford to pay something for use of the space.

I had a similar experience with footwear at my work. Some people in my office drive, some take transit (bus and metro) and I walk. The company has always paid the $70/mo parking for anyone who wanted it, and a few years ago after complaints, the started paying up to that amount for people who took transit. So, I joked that they should pay for my shoes. And, actually my boss said he would sign the expense report if I submitted it. I never did.

[nocar]

oowolf wrote

I hope I live long enough to see every fossil-fueled powered vehicle rendered useless.

Well, so do I. With a few exceptions, like fire-engines and ambulances, perhaps police cars.

As we go down the slope of oil availabillity (fossil oil, not necessarily olive oil), let's reserve it for the most essential uses.

nocar

[nocar]

oowolf wrote

I hope I live long enough to see every fossil-fueled powered vehicle rendered useless.

Well, so do I. With a few exceptions, like fire-engines and ambulances, perhaps police cars.

As we go down the slope of oil availabillity (fossil oil, not necessarily olive oil), let's reserve it for the most essential uses.

nocar

[oilfreeandhappy]

Interesting thread. Everybody's comments seem so valid. Depending on where you are in your walk of life, where you live, and what your idea of fun is, all reasoning is plausible.

I've been working towards car-free for years. My daughter, who is now a college student of 19, is car-free away at College. She rode her bicycle to school through Junior High and HS. My son is a Senior, and he does the same (5-miles one-way). They both took the school bus or city bus if they couldn't ride. I cycle to work year-round. Yes, the 8-mile one-way ride takes time, but better to cycle outside, than inside a gym! My wife has started cycling more and more, but she still uses the car.

Other obstacles:
1. Just recently, my Father-in-Law moved in, and he has emphysema, and cannot ride a bike. (Young children are not the only "age" obstacle).
2. There is no bus service to my place of employment. Although I'll ride in some light or packed snow, there are limits - heavy snow, ice, or frozen-over ruts.

So 100% car-free still eludes me. Drat!

To the fellow from Arlington. If you'd like, I'll ride in front of that auto dealership all day long, wearing my "Oil-Free and Happy" jacket.

[NeoPeasant]

Some people in my office drive, some take transit (bus and metro) and I walk. The company has always paid the $70/mo parking for anyone who wanted it, and a few years ago after complaints, the started paying up to that amount for people who took transit. So, I joked that they should pay for my shoes. And, actually my boss said he would sign the expense report if I submitted it. I never did.

Maybe they could hand everyone a $70 check each month which they could either immediately surrender for a parking pass, or take to the bank and cash. It would be interesting to see how people would react when they see their parking costs as real money. How many would keep the check?

[dinopello]

Some people in my office drive, some take transit (bus and metro) and I walk. The company has always paid the $70/mo parking for anyone who wanted it, and a few years ago after complaints, the started paying up to that amount for people who took transit. So, I joked that they should pay for my shoes. And, actually my boss said he would sign the expense report if I submitted it. I never did.

Maybe they could hand everyone a $70 check each month which they could either immediately surrender for a parking pass, or take to the bank and cash. It would be interesting to see how people would react when they see their parking costs as real money. How many would keep the check?

That was discussed, but was some accounting thing - the parking money came out of 'facilities budget'. I think somehow the argument was made that transit could come out of that pot too (but they had to provide receipts), but just giving people money didn't work.

It is interesting what people did. I actually love walking. It takes about 20 minutes, and just about a mile. There's a lot to see on the way too, and my coffee shop. It seems bad for the car to just drive that much anyway.

We have 2 employees that live in downtown DC, one drives and one takes metro. The one who drives lives right on top of the metro, but he has a reserved space at his condo so he knows he can get a spot when he gets back to DC . The other has to walk a few blocks to metro, but she also has to compete for street space for parking (in DC) in an older row house so she metro's. We have another employee who lives way far out and she takes a bus to the metro because she says she hates driving in the traffic.

Its a combo of money, convienence and general lifestyle preference.

[WildRose]

I've been reducing my driving as well. I'm using about 1/2 tank of gas in my Honda Accord per week, which includes driving to work and back, taking the kids places and running errands. I do as many errands on foot as possible, which is great because I love walking and my dog is always happy to accompany me. Something else that helps is coordinating errands that are all in one direction or one area and making these trips just once a week.

My husband has a long drive and is always keeping an eye out for work closer to home. He drives an ancient van. I work midnights, so I drive because I don't want to stand at bus stops and walk from the bus stop to my work in the dark by myself. At least my work is just a 10-minute drive.

I've found it difficult to cut back on driving my teens to events, though. We have quite a gang problem in our city and a couple of incidents where people have been in the wrong place at the wrong time, and I worry about my kids' safety. So I always pick them up from friends' places, games, etc. at night. I tend to ferry other kids home besides my own, so that cuts back on having several other vehicles also driving kids home.

Generally, though, we've just been doing more things closer to home, utilizing our neighborhood parks and swimming pools, library, malls that are within walking distance, and it's all been good.

[Vortex]

[align=justify] It is possible to live without a car, even if one live in middle of Sweden, in a city that belong to the more rural kind of classes. I have never owned a car, but do have a drivers license, it is almost a must have if you want to take a job here, one does not have to own a car, but be able and allowed to drive one.

My reasons for not owning a car right now is partly due to finance - I can save a lot of money not having a car - and partly due to the fact that I will not contribute or be a part of the "status cult of owning a fancy car".

I have opted to localize my living. Everything can be reached by bike or by foot. From where i live there are no more than 150 meters to the store, about 1 kilometer to the town and the river where one can fish and 150-200 meters to the forests. It took me less than five minutes to bike to my former work!

The lack of a car can also be problematic, however. There are few buses here, many rural parts of Sweden do have commuting, buses, but they are seldom departing/arriving and not at the time my shift begin at my current work.

I commute with a fellow employee who has a car (I pay him about $90 per month for this) but if he is on vacation or is abscent, I will have to commute and then I will be late. Fortunately, my boss understands my reasons for not having a car and he accepts my delay. Of course, I will have to compensate for this by working "over time", but it fits well with the bus which takes me home.

Later, somewhere in the future, when (hopefully) I have my house and garden created and perhaps a bit of a forest, I probably must have a heavy duty car. But it will most certainly be reserved to the most needful errands and not to some sort of entertainment cruising.

Gas, insurance and taxes are pretty steep in Sweden, as in most of the European countries I presume. So if one can do without a car, one can save a lot of money, allocate funding to other, perhaps more needful, projects. Gas (regular) is $5.86 per gallon in my city, by the way. [align=justify]

[gwmss15]

I dont own a car and never will. I noticed a big problem for people with young kids and having no car. well my mum did it with no problem she carried me on her back and got on the bus just like everyone else she did this untill i could walk my self. When i was 4 yo she showed me how to use the very complex issan metro and bus system. which is nothing like what you have in the USA.

I started school when i was 5 yo and had to travel 40 KM from my family home on a "truck bus" by my self when i was this age just getting on to this truck was difficult as its a 2 foot gap from the back to the ground but all my friends at school did the same. but i can see why some parents have a concern about this as one of my friends fell out of the truck bus when it was traveling and broke his leg and arm and missed 3 months of school. but i and my school mates kept on travelling on this system.

The key to travelling with young kids is to make them aware of this risks of the metro and bus system.

The rules i was taught by my mum and at school when young were:

1. allways board the bus or train quickly and grab hold of something as soon as possiabe "buses do not wait for you to even get to the top step before flooring it"

2. never travel on the steps "its easy to slip and fall out of the bus or train at speed.

3. never lean out of the metro windows again easy to fall or get hit by the overhead supports

4. allways exit a bus via the back door incase you fall you will not get run over by the bus. "the buses allways crawl along instead of fully stopping to let you off."

5. never talk to people you dont know except for monks

6. dont play around or run in the train or bus as its easy to fall.

7. allways read the sign on the front of the bus or side of train to see if it correct one before boarding.

8. allways hold on to a pole or take a seat if free.

teach your kids these 8 simple rules and they will be fine to use the transit system on there own. But travel with them the 1st few times so they know which is the correct route to take as the central bus terminals are very very busy as there are about 900 bus routes runing from the bus terminal some of these where even international and intercity express buses hence rule 7.

my trip was take bus 895 to city bus terminal and change for route 1E (express) and get off at the school this is what i did every day when i was at primary school

[frankthetank]

What are car insurance costs in Europe? Is full coverage mandatory on all vehicles? or can one just have liability on it?

Here in the states i insure a halfway new small 4 cyl car for a little over $100 bucks for six months of coverage (just liability), so really its really reasonable. Add another car and its even cheaper on the second one.

What about registration? Here car registration is $55/year for my little car. I believe trucks are a little more. This varies a lot by the state you are in.

Gas currently is $2.35/gallon.

[Vortex]

My work fellow, 20 years old, would pay about 25 000 SEK ($3700) per year for his Volvo S40 T-5, full coverage. There are three levels of insurances in Sweden. The mandatory "traffic insurance". Then you can add "half coverage" and "full coverage". Almost everyone I know has full coverage which covers, well almost everything. The most important aspects regarding the insurance fee in Sweden are: age, location and type of car/vehicle. Younger (male) people tend to drive fast and are considered somewhat prone to causing an accident, especially in combination with fast cars or motorcycles. Hence the expensive fee. It is not unknown to pay 30 000 SEK (>$4400) per year if you have recently got the drivers license and bought a motorcycle or a sport car. Yes, if you own one sport car and one hell of a motorcycle, it will probably be more than $8000 to pay for insurances. Add gas about $5.8 per gallon (it reached almost 7 bucks during the Katrina/Rita event) and one realizes that there are serious savings to be had if one can cope without a car or at least a lesser one.

[snax]

I had spent four years ignoring the obvious on this issue. Living 100 yards from a mainline bus stop, and working 200 yards from the stop 2.5 miles away, it was only four months ago that I did the math on what driving every day was really costing me. Even trying to be "green" by driving a $30k hybrid vehicle, the cost was simply unacceptable.

Monthly payment $500
Insurance (2nd veh) $80
Fuel @ $2.50/gal $8
Bus fare -$20
-------------------------------------
Savings $568/month

Taking this further and asking what my extra 20 minutes of daily commute time (by either bicycle or bus) is worth by ditching the car:

20m x 5 days = 100 min/wk
100 min/wk x 4 wks/mo = 400 min/mo or 6 hrs 40 min (6.67hrs)
$568/mo / 6.67hrs = $85 / hr

I don't know about you, but for myself and probably most of the rest of the world, making or saving $85/hr to ride the bus or, dare I say it, to exercise a little, is difficult to pass up!

Granted, I REALLY like nice cars, and having a $500/month payment could easily be removed from the equation by settling for more modest means that once paid for are reduced to maintenance, fuel, and insurance costs. Even so, for most people that is a MINIMUM of $100/month just for the privledge of owning the car - whether they drive it or not. And even that is still a cost of $15/hr with a mere 20 minutes extra commute time per day.

If all of this had dawned on me 4 years ago, I could have saved $24,000 in that time.

We do have another vehicle and $600/mo payment that we kept since selling the Escape Hybrid, but with kids and other demands, selling it too simply would not be practical. The bottom line is that for our area, some kind of vehicle really is necessary for our family without significant inconvenience and time cost, but the cost to inconvenience factor of not having a second vehicle is far less of an issue. In fact, until I somehow manage to start getting paid $85/hr, it just flat doesn't make financial sense to have a second nice vehicle, and even a paid for clunker still challenges my sensibilities when I think of it in terms of getting paid $15/hr to exercise up to 20 minutes a day.

At the end of the day on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being the most convenient, I'd rate my current situation at 3 or less. I simply don't miss driving to work, I can read a little when I ride the bus, and I have fun exercising when I ride the bike. (BTW, studded mountain bike tires work excellent and are worth the 50 bucks!)

[dinopello]

The changing face of travel for city dwellers

Many cities are improving their walkability with better infrastructure and (most importantly) great places to walk to, that people are driving less but also giving up a car altogether and using zipcar or Uber (along with other, more conventional transit or cabs). It is potentially a problem for car companies.

[Beery1]

...we can bike or walk to many services, including the grocery store and school, as long as it's not raining too hard.

What's the problem: don't they sell raincoats in Oregon?

With that thumbnail sketch, going carless for us would seem easy. The problems arise with the realities of transporting small children: hard to get them ready to be punctual for public transportation, too big or too small for bike seats, too cold or rainy for a bike trailer, they're napping so you can't leave the house or pack them into the bike trailer, they need car seats for taxis, the list really goes on and on.

Excuses, excuses! I've never owned a car and my daily commute is 8 miles - I do it by bicycle. I am also a stay-at-home dad who brought up a child without a car. She was in a bike seat from the time she was a year old. Sure, there is such a thing as "too small for a bike seat", but it lasts only about 6 months, and if they're too big, they get a bike. There is no such thing as "too cold or rainy" - we have often ridden the two miles to school in driving rain and in snow, and in sub-zero temperatures. Heck, my mom brought my brother and I up without even a bike - she got us the distances that people here assume are too far to cycle - and she WALKED those distances - and we did too!

Heck, if the kids are napping, you wake them up. If they are not being punctual, you wake them up earlier so they have time.

As for taxis, I can't afford taxis, and that brings up your other claimed impossibility for cycling - housing cost. Some here seem to be of the opinion that you need to be within a certain radius of a large town in order to cycle. That's nonsense. If you have the kid's school, doctors, supermarkets, etc., within 10 miles, you can cycle there. All you need is the will to do it. The problem is, most people don't, because they allow themselves the "out" of using a car, or public transport, or a taxi. So they make up excuses, like the fact that housing in towns is expensive.

And some of the other comments here are ridiculous. The whining about "too far to bike" makes America seem like a vast desert. If you live more than ten miles away from your daily needs, you made a poor geographical choice when you bought/rented your accommodation. You can't blame the bicycle for your own poor planning (which was driven by the fact that you own a car, not by some "need" to be 30 miles away), or for not being able to get you 30 miles to work and back each day (by the way, it CAN). Owning a car makes people believe that the car is necessary, but it isn't.

And this idea that we "waste" time during our commute is driven by the simple fact that driving is BORING and frustrating! Cycling is not. I would much rather spend an hour and a half on my bike than 30 minutes stuck in traffic in a car.

All the so-called "reasons" for not cycling are excuses. There is nowhere I can't get my daughter on the bike if I need to. Anytime, any weather, we get there. If it's not within cycling distance, it's not worth getting to. My daughter and I have twice cycled thirty miles together in a day with her on the Trail-a-Bike. Heck, I cycled 10,000 miles because I wanted to see Europe, so no distance is too far to cycle, except in someone's mind. It's just a matter of commitment. If you're not committed to cycling, you'll find excuses not to do it, because the motorized alternative is faster and more comfortable. The problem with that is that the automobile is killing us: it pollutes, it makes us fat, it kills more people violently than guns - and it's hugely expensive. For me, the list of drawbacks to owning a car were always longer than the list of advantages.

[Keith_McClary]

There is no such thing as "too cold or rainy" - we have often ridden the two miles to school in driving rain and in snow, and in sub-zero temperatures.

One cold morning (below -20C) the kid's coaster brake bike didn't work - he could crank the pedals forward but the bike didn't move. There is probably a simple explanation relating to the grease being too viscous at low temperatures.

Had to walk.

[Perfector]

Can you get low temperature bicycle lubricant? Although I'm not sure if you'd want to be riding a bike at those sort of temperatures. Wouldn't the spokes risk breaking for example?

But anyhow I know someone who didn't get a car until relatively late in life. Now whenever I talk to him he mostly gushes about how wonderfully convenient it is to have a car. He's right, they are a great convenience, and possibly even a net good. But probably not sustainable.