[Keith_McClary]

Could we not agree that there is a correlation between strength of belief (in anything) and willingness to use force to protect/enforce that belief

What about Simon the conviction of non-violence, one can believe in that with all one's heart and soul, you think then those same believers are going to use force to enforce it? I do not think so.

What used to be called "non-violent protest", such as sit-ins and lying down in front of bulldozers, has been redefined as causing economic losses and therefore "damaging property" and therefore violence/terrorism.

[PrestonSturges]

The problem with the anti-terror security state we live in is that the definition of terrorism gets wider and wider. Of course, antiwar pacifists like Quakers have always been treated as if they are terrorists, probably in most societies. Although conservatives embrace Martin Luther King as one of their own today, back in the day he was more viewed more like Osama Bin Laden.

The Occupy movement was good because it showed how the government agencies from top to bottom workedd hand in hand with companies while using physical violence against peaceful protesters. Cops seemed to single out women for various kinds of brutality, which is going to make protest an all male hooligan activity rather than a family affair. Conservative web sites function as the propaganda arm of big business, and there was a general call for protesters to be massacred.

[C8]

There is a bit of false equivalency going on in some of the comments here. Governments are not citizens- I am talking about the protests by CITIZENS on the left. You can always go back in history and find a right wing government using violence- BUT for every one of these examples I can show a left wing govt. also using violence on its people.

I am talking about protests led by the PEOPLE. Citizens on the right tend to be respectful of property while citizens on the left tend NOT to be.

Some recent examples:

Germany: Perida demonstrations tend to be peaceful- but German leftests who oppose these marches stepped in front of rail lines to prevent people from getting to the march sites, they attacked Perida members at the march

Greece: Right leaning supporters of the Euro and the debt deal marched peacefully- left wing opponents of the deal firebombed cars and threw Molotov cocktails at the police

US: Supporters of the police had peaceful marches- but left leaning Black Lives Matter protesters looted buildings, set fire to stores and even attacked reporters

The left seems to revel in destruction and presents a narrative that justifies destroying other peoples property and (sometimes) their livelihoods (many stores burned in the US never re-opened). By presenting "the system" as evil the left seems to be saying "therefore you don't have to follow any laws or respect anyone else's rights"- it becomes a licence for anarchy.

And I do not believe this violence is motivated by passion for the "cause"- violence actually detracts from the message of left-wing protests and causes citizens to mistrust the left. I think left wing people are violent because they have a violent outlook on life and tend to use their "cause" as a personal excuse to engage in fun destruction and hurt others- the movement produces sociopaths.

Extreme right wing folks also are violent- but today, the extremists on the streets tend to be left wing folks and right wing marchers tend to be more moderate types.

[Pops]

LoL, leftist are by definition opposed to a dominate, oppressive hierarchy and that oppressive hierarchy is typically the government —which is what they are protesting.

How much sense would it make for rightists to protest that there is not enough oppression against protesting?
Or leftists to be flying flags in appreciation of the oppressiveness of their governments?

And how exactly does one get the attention of an oppressive government without protesting?

What a silly topic.

[onlooker]

[quote
What used to be called "non-violent protest", such as sit-ins and lying down in front of bulldozers, has been redefined as causing economic losses and therefore "damaging property" and therefore violence/terrorism.[/quote]

That is why the whole planet has become simultaneously an oligarchy, plutocracy and kleptocracy. Only in a world ruled by the few and wealthy would they even dare to define terrorism/violence in such a way

[ennui2]

Well supposedly everyone here is more or less convinced the human race is doomed as a species because corporations control...

Not everyone thinks it's that simple.



All this left-vs-right political theater is part and parcel of why we're screwed. No common ground and just shouting past the other.

[ralfy]

There is a bit of false equivalency going on in some of the comments here. Governments are not citizens- I am talking about the protests by CITIZENS on the left. You can always go back in history and find a right wing government using violence- BUT for every one of these examples I can show a left wing govt. also using violence on its people.

I am talking about protests led by the PEOPLE. Citizens on the right tend to be respectful of property while citizens on the left tend NOT to be.

Some recent examples:

Germany: Perida demonstrations tend to be peaceful- but German leftests who oppose these marches stepped in front of rail lines to prevent people from getting to the march sites, they attacked Perida members at the march

Greece: Right leaning supporters of the Euro and the debt deal marched peacefully- left wing opponents of the deal firebombed cars and threw Molotov cocktails at the police

US: Supporters of the police had peaceful marches- but left leaning Black Lives Matter protesters looted buildings, set fire to stores and even attacked reporters

The left seems to revel in destruction and presents a narrative that justifies destroying other peoples property and (sometimes) their livelihoods (many stores burned in the US never re-opened). By presenting "the system" as evil the left seems to be saying "therefore you don't have to follow any laws or respect anyone else's rights"- it becomes a licence for anarchy.

And I do not believe this violence is motivated by passion for the "cause"- violence actually detracts from the message of left-wing protests and causes citizens to mistrust the left. I think left wing people are violent because they have a violent outlook on life and tend to use their "cause" as a personal excuse to engage in fun destruction and hurt others- the movement produces sociopaths.

Extreme right wing folks also are violent- but today, the extremists on the streets tend to be left wing folks and right wing marchers tend to be more moderate types.

The left will obviously take to the streets because they do not control the military, the police, or various economic sectors. The right will tend to be moderate because they are backed by the financiers who fund the government, the military, etc.

Given that, if you must consider levels of violence, then do not focus on rioters. Instead, focus on those who control weapons of mass destruction and the manufacturing and financial sectors that allow for such. In short, the

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military% ... al_complex

And if you wonder why "moderates" have had no "violent" reaction to such an arrangement, then consider

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_media

[Hawkcreek]

There is a bit of false equivalency going on in some of the comments here. Governments are not citizens- I am talking about the protests by CITIZENS on the left. You can always go back in history and find a right wing government using violence- BUT for every one of these examples I can show a left wing govt. also using violence on its people.

I am talking about protests led by the PEOPLE. Citizens on the right tend to be respectful of property while citizens on the left tend NOT to be.

Governments almost always are, or always become right wing, regardless of what they call themselves.
People who ignore government abuse of power are almost always conservative, and lean in that direction because their bread is buttered by the existing system. Why would they riot to change a system that continues to furnish the butter?
The whole idea of government is to use the power they have, and to make sure nothing changes, whereas being liberal almost always means being open to change.
Conservatives fear change, which is why so many governments end up with conservative death squads to continue the oppression of the citizens, by other citizens who approve the status quo.
All death squads are made up of citizens, who are respectful of property, but not of lives.

[onlooker]

Hawk, tremendous post and right on. In the end the first amendment to the US is the first because it revolves around the most important right a citizen can have. The right to free speech or in other words to voice opposition to oppressive rule.

[PrestonSturges]

In the US if someone is a right wing antisocial misfit who likes to beat people and break private property, they simply become a cop. It's not as if these people don't exist or something.

[Cog]

How many cops do you see in this picture?
What I see is a rich and diverse community doing what they do every time there is an opportunity. There does seem to be a lack of belts and suspenders and Bernie Sanders should get on that and provide free belts to all.

LOL

[davep]

It was interesting to see who opposed and who promoted ubiquitous Governmental surveillance after the Snowden leaks.

Both Republicans and Democrats close to power promoted it. Liberals and libertarians, who were further from the entrenched power base became bedfellows in opposing unconstitutional activity.

The problem tends to be that any hierarchical Government will eventually tend towards a decrease in genuine choice and the slow creep towards corruption and abuse of power.

[onlooker]

The problem tends to be that any hierarchical Government will eventually tend towards a decrease in genuine choice and the slow creep towards corruption and abuse of power

That is why I will as long as I am posting on this site refer to the idea of having an active Constitution - Charter or whatever you wish to name it. I say active because it seems we have ignored or bypassed the Constitution to some degree. Also, devise methods to have decision making as horizontal as possible meaning not hierarchical or vertical..

[Tanada]

I notice all the knee jerk lefties are ignoring a fundamental fact.

The lefty protestors are not burning down town hall, the police station, the fire department and the National Guard Armory. IOW they are not attacking the government they claim is oppressing them. Instead they attack their neighbors, their local business owners or the property of the same. Burning 1 or 20 SUV's at the car dealership or looting your local pharmacy does nothing to 'rebel against the oppressive government'. Beating up or killing people who look differently from yourself does not end the 'oppression' by that group of people over your self identified group, it just makes people in the other group angry at your self identified group. It doesn't do squat to 'remove the oppressive government'.

[Outcast_Searcher]

Outcast_Searcher did you ever actually read Marx? The big take away is that Capitalism would Cannibalize itself. Seems bang on to me. Personally speaking I despise all political and religious apes who think there is one system for every problem. The more complex global civilization has become the more the true believers insist that their system has all the solutions even when everything is unraveling. What a coincidence that almost everyone of them from Baghdad to Boston is born into the family that just happens to practice the right religion or political affiliation. Mindless ape coalitions who are going to tear eachother apart in the name of their prefabricated belief systems.

Did you?

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need".

This slogan was popularized by Karl Marx. Ayn Rand does a fine job of pointing out how evil this statement is in "Shrugged".

This is a clear statement of the wishes of the "something for nothing" crowd, just as I said. Straw men and distractions won't change that.

[Outcast_Searcher]

I notice all the knee jerk lefties are ignoring a fundamental fact.

The lefty protestors are not burning down town hall, the police station, the fire department and the National Guard Armory. IOW they are not attacking the government they claim is oppressing them. Instead they attack their neighbors, their local business owners or the property of the same. Burning 1 or 20 SUV's at the car dealership or looting your local pharmacy does nothing to 'rebel against the oppressive government'. Beating up or killing people who look differently from yourself does not end the 'oppression' by that group of people over your self identified group, it just makes people in the other group angry at your self identified group. It doesn't do squat to 'remove the oppressive government'.

Absolutely outstanding observation. But for this type of group, they wouldn't actually ever want to decrease government. That after all, might decrease benefits they and theirs receive.

So instead they attack someone who has something which they don't have which they perceive as "unfair". After all, the left wing media has been stridently telling them how unfair property ownership is all their lives. I mean, come on, tax rates (in total) on the producers aren't almost 100% yet.

[Fishman]

"If you believe in something for nothing with OTHER people's money" liberalism, nail meet head.

[PrestonSturges]

Beating up or killing people who look differently from yourself does not end the 'oppression' by that group of people over your self identified group, it just makes people in the other group angry at your self identified group. It doesn't do squat to 'remove the oppressive government'.

Which is why right wingers insist that the government has been taken over by leftists and the Muslim brotherhood, and back in the 1930's they insisted that the US government had been infiltrated by Jews. Ike was supposedly a secret Jew the way Obama is supposedly a secret Muslim. Using this Jedi mind trick, they are able to simultaneously fantasize about overthrowing the government and shooting everyone that owns a Prius. Everything becomes self defense by victimized whites trying the oppressive boot heels of minorities off their necks. In conspiracy cuckcoo land, black rioters are the government and Obama is going to give them weapons and UN armored vehicles so they can kill all the Christians.

[Hawkcreek]

More conservative sound bites, prompted by the fear of change.
So many cliches, so little time to discuss why the elite always get the cream for doing nothing.

It reminds me of a typical Southern revival from 30 years ago. A lot of noise about EXACTLY why the creator likes for you to do as the pastor says, and then mix in much sound and fury about the darkies wanting to change the world and start sleeping with the white women.

It's gonna change no matter how afraid you are.

Ok, maybe it was 40 years ago. But I still remember the cross burning on the high school lawn in the dinky little town I grew up in.

[Tanada]

Beating up or killing people who look differently from yourself does not end the 'oppression' by that group of people over your self identified group, it just makes people in the other group angry at your self identified group. It doesn't do squat to 'remove the oppressive government'.

Which is why right wingers insist that the government has been taken over by leftists and the Muslim brotherhood, and back in the 1930's they insisted that the US government had been infiltrated by Jews. Ike was supposedly a secret Jew the way Obama is supposedly a secret Muslim. Using this Jedi mind trick, they are able to simultaneously fantasize about overthrowing the government and shooting everyone that owns a Prius. Everything becomes self defense by victimized whites trying the oppressive boot heels of minorities off their necks. In conspiracy cuckcoo land, black rioters are the government and Obama is going to give them weapons and UN armored vehicles so they can kill all the Christians.

You seem to be somewhere in cuckjoo land there Preston, try again if you want to actually communicate because this diatribe is a failure.