[J-Rod]

I'm a PC tech these days, but I had a 2 year stint as a non-destructive engineer, doing materials testing on stuff like paper mills and power boilers, and just about anything with pressure. Most of the time it involved x-rays, magnetic particle testing and a lot of ultrasonic thickness testing. After getting up close and personal with how a power boiler works, you get a new appreciation for energy, and what kinds of things operators wrangle with.

Most of the ones I had seen were coal fired plants. There was an interesting one near Orlando however, that burned mainly swamp and landfill gas. The idea was it would save money, and generate power from useless waste. The main problem however was the nasty wear and emissions they had to deal with. Those boiler walls eroded in strange patterns, and experienced different caustic issues. Not to mention the scrubbers that were used for emissions cost them a bundle. I wonder if they really saved money at all.

Most plant managers were complaining about the high cost of the mandatory scrubbers that are to be in place because of the clean air act. They would just love for someone to repeal that, so they could get away with the cost issues of scrubbers, and the additional maintenance and testing they required.

It was pretty amazing to stand inside a 12 story firebox, surrounded by walls of nothing but small tubing that carried the water to be turned into steam. Natural gas plants are of course much cleaner, but still require maintenance.

From the chatter I heard here and there from plant managers and operators is, they are all aware of the energy issues we face, as well as grid issues. Of course, this doesn't matter to them as their main job is a bottom line. I also talked to a customer about 6 months ago, who was an electrical engineer for Ohio Edison/First Energy. We go to talking after I saw various things around his house that told me what he did. I told him I was NDE, and it went from there. He as well was vehement about the problems of today, and how most people are simply indifferent to the real issues we face with fuel for an economy that needs to grow at a constant rate.

Well that's it, just felt like dropping that out there, was going to reply to another thread, but I figured I'd not mess anyone else's thread.

[Jack]

A most interesting report - thank you!

[Wallygator]

You said that the powerplant in Orlando was burning gas from a swamp and a landfill. First of all, was there really THAT much gas to burn? I'm wasn't aware that you could get that much out. Second, how is this gas different from natural gas? Isn't it all the same?

[J-Rod]

If I remember correctly, it was using the swamp and landfill gas as supplemental, along with your run of the mill natural gas. And yeah, swamp gas is considered natural gas. It's the landfill gas burning that was causing the erratic wear patterns. A good idea, but like I said, I wonder if they were actually saving any money messing with that, but hey. Kudos for trying something new.

[lutherquick]

J-Rod,

Great thread.

But 12 stories !!!!!
Damn. Sounds like we need to make a manditory high school trip for everything student to see a boiler and to stand in a 12 story as you worked in.

Then maybe people will start to think how imoprtant energy is.

[markam]

It was pretty amazing to stand inside a 12 story firebox

Yea, back when I was a paper mill engineer, the coolest thing was to go inside the black liquor boiler during mill shutdown, knowing that it was one of the most inhospitable places on earth when operating (greater than 1000 degrees C and a bed of molten sodium).

[J-Rod]

Oh yeah man, those liquor tanks were something else. The best were the safety videos we had to watch at each plant, stuff where they show a leather glove and 50% hydrogen peroxide. Or the one where the guy gets his face melted off with it. Okay, I made that up. But that should be in there, it would pwn. When I took my rad safety they showed pic of a guy who picked up a "purty pellet" off the ground, and kept it in his back pocket. It was a uranium pellet, used for shooting x-rays. Lesson? Always make sure you have your source in containment.

Funny anecdote relating to when I was in Sarnia. We had to wear these little ampules on clothing, to warn of hydrogen sulfide levels. They had an endearing name for them, I forget what, but it related to coffins I think, because once those things turned color you were gonna die anyways. They had a plant-wide alarm system, and said that if it ever goes off, where we were to report to.

So I am way up inside this scrubbing unit, which is hard to describe. Basically a long small cylinder we crawled in, with like 13 boxes of heavy ass prototype equipment. Stuff was worth maybe 200k. So me and another guy are doing our thing, testing away. It's not a smooth cylinder, it's poked full of strange protrusions and other moving stuff, hard to navigate. So the alarm goes off, and I freak out. After watching all these damn safety videos, I am sure I am going to die. I literally throw the equipment down, hear it crack, and get out of this thing in maybe 5-6 seconds. We are at the top of the buliding, high as hell. I am flying like a bat out of hell down the stairs, which are narrow, and not very safe, think of fire escape railing outside of a large tower. Holding onto the handrails and jumping, sliding down. It was almost comical. Eric was behind me trying to keep up. He later mentioned that it was the fastest he had ever seen me move. I wasn't the most industrious of types.

We finally make it to the rally point, and it turns out it was a small fire in part of the complex we weren't even in. So it was back to work. The machine was actually fine, the engineers did something right it seems. But after that day I started thinking about wether or not the money was worth it to be a travelling NDE tech.

[Devil]

I'm a PC tech these days, but I had a 2 year stint as a non-destructive engineer, doing materials testing on stuff like paper mills and power boilers, and just about anything with pressure. Most of the time it involved x-rays, magnetic particle testing and a lot of ultrasonic thickness testing. After getting up close and personal with how a power boiler works, you get a new appreciation for energy, and what kinds of things operators wrangle with.

Most of the ones I had seen were coal fired plants. There was an interesting one near Orlando however, that burned mainly swamp and landfill gas. The idea was it would save money, and generate power from useless waste. The main problem however was the nasty wear and emissions they had to deal with. Those boiler walls eroded in strange patterns, and experienced different caustic issues. Not to mention the scrubbers that were used for emissions cost them a bundle. I wonder if they really saved money at all.

Most plant managers were complaining about the high cost of the mandatory scrubbers that are to be in place because of the clean air act. They would just love for someone to repeal that, so they could get away with the cost issues of scrubbers, and the additional maintenance and testing they required.

It was pretty amazing to stand inside a 12 story firebox, surrounded by walls of nothing but small tubing that carried the water to be turned into steam. Natural gas plants are of course much cleaner, but still require maintenance.

From the chatter I heard here and there from plant managers and operators is, they are all aware of the energy issues we face, as well as grid issues. Of course, this doesn't matter to them as their main job is a bottom line. I also talked to a customer about 6 months ago, who was an electrical engineer for Ohio Edison/First Energy. We go to talking after I saw various things around his house that told me what he did. I told him I was NDE, and it went from there. He as well was vehement about the problems of today, and how most people are simply indifferent to the real issues we face with fuel for an economy that needs to grow at a constant rate.

Well that's it, just felt like dropping that out there, was going to reply to another thread, but I figured I'd not mess anyone else's thread.

Landfill and swamp gases are both a mixture of various gases and VOCs, some of them quite nasty. However the CH4 content is rarely higher than 50% and this means that they have to have their impurities removed (just like fossil fuel "natural" gas) before they can be used as fuel. One of the scrubbers used is a monoethanolamine solution, to remove CO2 and other acid gases which are the main cause of pipeline corrosion and which form a large proportion of the non-methane gases. If this were not done, I could imagine that the boiler walls could suffer greatly, as the refractory steels of the casing are quite chemically tender. Notwithstanding, the main components of the combustion gas from burning even the purest methane is mainly CO2 and H2O but there are also some other very corrosive gases, notably NOx; 4NO2 + 2H2O + O2 > 4HNO3, which is nitric acid, the nitrogen and oxygen coming from the air, of course.

This is also why scrubbing of the flue gases is mandatory, to remove most of the polluting gases which already cause mankind untold suffering and death. In fact, I am shocked to find that anyone today would even think of not having adequate scrubbing.

[Frank]

I've had a bit of exposure to chemical scrubbers in industry from an environmental management standpoint and can tell you that the maintenance managers are all under the same budgetary pressure as everyone else in industry, so if one could eliminate a major source of operating cost/hassle, etc. they'd be all for it.

That's why strong environmental laws are necessary - it's nice to be able to hold a "hard hammer" over people's heads and remind them that they can go to jail for sabotaging proceses, equipment, etc. I think that most folks do understand how important proper treatment is but I have to believe that there's still a group of unethical people that would cheat if they thought they could get away with it.

On the other hand these same laws can provide incentive to develop "pollution prevention" strategies and alternative processes that don't require the same level of treatment. I know this isn't always possible but I've seen it work wonders where alternative processes exist.

[Starvid]

But 12 stories !!!!!
Damn. Sounds like we need to make a manditory high school trip for everything student to see a boiler and to stand in a 12 story as you worked in.

Then maybe people will start to think how imoprtant energy is.

I second that!

My physics teacher brought my whole class to Forsmark nuclear power plant so we should get an idea why our lamps and computers are really working.

[frankthetank]

A friend worked @ a power plant (coal) a few years back and had an experience. His dad is a boilermaker (??) and got him a job up in NE Wi for a few weeks putting up scaffolding (whatever its called). To make a long story short, someone above him was pounding something with a crowbar (only tool these guys carry/use it seems) and it fell! puncturing my buddies helmet and knocking him to the ground. Luckily he wasn't hurt and got to sit the rest of the job on a chair making an obscene amt of money (these guys are paid WELL--i saw his check form the 2 weeks he was there).

[J-Rod]

Landfill and swamp gases are both a mixture of various gases and VOCs, some of them quite nasty. However the CH4 content is rarely higher than 50% and this means that they have to have their impurities removed (just like fossil fuel "natural" gas) before they can be used as fuel. One of the scrubbers used is a monoethanolamine solution, to remove CO2 and other acid gases which are the main cause of pipeline corrosion and which form a large proportion of the non-methane gases. If this were not done, I could imagine that the boiler walls could suffer greatly, as the refractory steels of the casing are quite chemically tender. Notwithstanding, the main components of the combustion gas from burning even the purest methane is mainly CO2 and H2O but there are also some other very corrosive gases, notably NOx; 4NO2 + 2H2O + O2 > 4HNO3, which is nitric acid, the nitrogen and oxygen coming from the air, of course.

This is also why scrubbing of the flue gases is mandatory, to remove most of the polluting gases which already cause mankind untold suffering and death. In fact, I am shocked to find that anyone today would even think of not having adequate scrubbing.

Well that's quite informative. I'll admit, my main job was to produce good data regarding boiler wall erosion, and not to know the ins and outs of how the fireballs are created. Sounds like you might be in the industry yourself, eh? Or possibly a chemical engineer.

[Devil]

Neither. Formally, I'm an electronics engineer, but a very polyvalent career over the last 50-odd years plus post-grad courses in toxicology, metallurgy, chemistry and physics and long experience in atmospheric sciences and environmental engineering has allowed me to appreciate many aspects. I've been consultant to various country's governments and the UNEP and other UN agencies in these fields.

The only direct contact I've had with the power generation industry was in the 1950s when I handled a project for fly ash handling at the coal-fired Blyth A and B power stations (each 4 x 200 MWe) in NE England. The corrosion products in the flue gases were a devil in the electrostatic precipitators and, being ionic, could cause flashovers and corrosion if the ash caked on the electrodes.