[Nano]

Calling the Dutch economy 'shitty' is going too far. There is a lot of turmoil over actually very simple issues involving social security and welfare, and integration. We had some political killings which shook the nation. The government does not present a confident attitude.

Maybe the CPB is correct that the oil prices will slump to 35$. If the world economy can't take the beating of 50$ oil anymore, supply capacity might surely grow out above demand again and prices might plummet? It's not 2008 yet!

[felixdz]

Can anybody tell me if the Netherlands puts puts out individual preparedness information like there is in The USA, Canada and Australia?

For some examples of what I mean:

http://www.redcross.org/services/prepar ... 7_,00.html

http://www.pfe.gov.uk/


http://www.ema.gov.au/agd/ema/emaIntern ... enDocument

Can someone provide me with a link for the Netherlands. In Dutch or English. I have friends who can translate.

What about other European Countries?

Thanks.

Personally while Peak Oil is a real concern long term I am more immediately worried about a pandemic flu:

http://www.fluwikie.com

[Chocky]

Personally while Peak Oil is a real concern long term I am more immediately worried about a pandemic flu:

The most constructive thing you can do about that is to go to a doctor and explain that you are worried about avian flu, and ask for a presciption for Tamiflu, the same antivirals that governments around the world are stockpiling. Since most doctors are worried about avian flu as well, you shouldn't have to many problems. Better get a few repeats, pandemics tend to come in waves. Tamiflu has a 4-5 year shelf life.

[felixdz]

Thanks for the reply. I am well aware of the various flu anti-virals, etc. I just would like to know what official advice European governments are giving to their citizens.

I am amazed that the Netherlands Red Cross did not even seem to know much about individual disaster preparedness.

[stu]

Following the murder of Theo van Gogh and the recent arrests of terror suspects in Holland people are saying that the famous Dutch tolerance is possibly going to end.


Dutch police make terror arrests

Militants had been plotting to attack the intelligence service's headquarter in The Hague and members of parliament, Mr Remkes said.

The arrests come a day after renewed death threats against conservative members of parliament Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Geert Wilders - both outspoken critics of radical Islam - the BBC's Geraldine Coughlan reports.

Has this only come about through Balkendes (Harry Potter ) policies of getting friendly with Bush and putting troops into Iraq?

[rogerhb]

Has this only come about through Balkendes (Harry Potter ) policies of getting friendly with Bush and putting troops into Iraq?

I did not know that Dutch troops were in Iraq. Netherlands have typically been low key, during WWII they were occupied by the Germans and really were unable to put up much of a fight due to size of population etc.

Netherlands real heydey was during the great seafaring explorations and empire building during the 1600-1900 period. The Boers were actually Dutch. Also they had alot of territories in the East Asia and the Pacific. Anyone heard of Abel Tasman?

[Chocky]

I guess maybe the super-conservative Northern African/Islamic culture just isn't very compatible with the famously progressive and tolerant Dutch culture. If I was Dutch I'd be asking myself, 'What are we actually getting out of these immigrants? How are they actually benefiting our country?'.

Anyone heard of Abel Tasman?

Sure have

[rogerhb]

If I was Dutch I'd be asking myself, 'What are we actually getting out of these immigrants? How are they actually benefiting our country?'.

With the dropping of borders and the EU that is the question you can no longer ask. It's all to enable the free flow of money, er, no, er sorry, I meant trade.

[americandream]

To me mate from tassie..here's a wee something to put ya to bed

once upon a time there was the Cold War with the bad killjoy commies...and all was well with Osama and them muslim god fearing brave commie fighting boys. Alas all the commies gave up and took to mammon...and as for them muslim boys..dunno what happened there..they went all funny!!!

End of bed time story.

[JayBee]

When the going gets tough, the weak run away...

Ireland is now home to thousands of Dutch people (white ones to be precise).

Rather than face up to the problems in their country Dutch people have been buying up land and building new houses and lives for themselves in Ireland.

My own own township consists of 15 houses. Five of them Dutch. This is repeated over and over along the western coast.

The most common male birth name in Holland is now Muhammed. Holland will be an Islamic nation in the not too distant future.

For tollerant read push-over.

[Sleepybag]

Holland is undergoing a growing radicalisation of Muslims and Non-Muslims in recent years.

The young (mainly second generation) Turks and Maroccans grew up being Western and also islamic. They grew up in low-income, "immigrant ghetto" neighbourhoods. More then 50% of births in Amsterdam is now from islamic parents. They went to school in Holland, but at home, they grew up in traditional islam tradition. They are now the ones that have to adapt or go radical.

Recent event in the world have made it harder for these kids. Since 9/11, muslims are looked at with a lot of suspicion. They now know they are a kind of second class citizens. Not having an equal chance of work, denied entrance to discotheques, punished harder by police forces. That has made them angry, put them in more isolation, and made some even more fundamental.

The ones that were arrested last weekend, were aquainted with the murderer of Theo van Gogh, and some have been arrested more then once.

Sending "them" back is not really an option, since most were born and raised here. However, a lot of Dutch people now feel alienated in their own country. What will this result in?

[Quicksilver]

What will happen to tolerance and immigration after peak oil? Both will probably end. We may see the expulsion of muslims from Europe in the not too distant future.

[Doly]

What will happen to tolerance and immigration after peak oil? Both will probably end. We may see the expulsion of muslims from Europe in the not too distant future.

Yes, and it will help to solve the problems about as much as killing Jews helped Germany.

[Free]

I am totally for immigration, multiculturalism and against racism. However, I have always had the opinion that this must be done in an open, transparent way where all conditions are clearly understood by everybody involved.

Long enough nobody cared. The deal was that the immigrants came here and did the dirty work and payed our pensions, as long as they stayed low, almost invisible, and didn't cause too much hassle. The immigrants were happy enough as well as long as nobody interfered too much in their daily life.

This laisser-faire policy which cared only about the economical effects, not the cultural ones was a big mistake. Now it is becoming increasingly clear that this just doesn't work. Conflicts will arise, wherever two different value-sets clash.

It is no problem if a country tells the immigrant BEFOREHAND what he has to expect, what rules he has to follow. But it is a problem if an immigrant lives here for the 2nd generation or longer, is still denied the same chances as the other citizens, and sees his culture and values in danger (from his perspective) - At the same time excluded but not allowed to live like he wants in that exclusion.

We can only hope that after some point one generation of immigrants will assimilate - this has to go both ways! They have to have the same rights and obligations as all other citizens.

But multiculturalism becomes an illusion and a fairy tale exactly then when two values just can't live together. If a muslim immigrant sees the law of god as higher as the law of the state he is living in, this is a big problem, as the state must not tolerate this.

So immigration yes, but under clear terms and with efforts from all sides, otherwise this spells desaster.

But of course nobody will confront this problem until it becomes too painful to ignore.
Politicians, and even more the electorate, remind me of children who don't wanna do their homework, always think "tomorrow tomorrow", and then cry at the end of the school year when they have to bring home bad marks...

[rogerhb]

When the going gets tough, the weak run away...

Ironic you should say that given your nations history with the Irish Potato famine!

Ireland is now home to thousands of Dutch people (white ones to be precise).

So when is Ireland going to become protestant?

[foodnotlawns]

there's no reason you "can't" send them back. Put them on a plane, fly the plane back to their ancestor's homeland, drop them off, rinse, repeat.

Just because they were born in Europe or the US doesn't mean they "can't" go back. Of course they can! And I'd gladly sign the deportation order and fly the plane (with the passengers cuffed to their seats of course).

If we were feeling generous we could send them home with some cash in their pockets for a brand new mud hut.

Dutch moving to Ireland to escape Muslims? Just like a liberal! What a bunch of hypocritical cowards! Force integration on the local school, then send their own kids to private schools.

We need to force liberals to eat their own dog food, and without any gravy either!

[rogerhb]

Just because they were born in Europe or the US doesn't mean they "can't" go back. Of course they can! And I'd gladly sign the deportation order and fly the plane (with the passengers cuffed to their seats of course).

1. So you don't know what holding a passport means then? Apparently only 5% of US citizens have one.

2. If you hold a passport for a country it means you effectively have that countries nationality. An acquired passport can be revoked but not the nationality of birth. (I have two both UK and NZ, technically the NZ one could be revoked but not the UK one).

3. Europe has dropped it's borders within Europe to aid free flow of what ever you want, money, jobs, people.

4. Are you an Irish immigration officer holding a current pilots license?

5. Mugabe has tried to expel whites born in Zimbabwe who have the right to a foreign passport but never exercised that right. I can see which way you are heading.

[Sleepybag]

The following quote is taken from an article called "The Sinking Dutchman", and it was publiced on the website of the Brussels Journal about a week ago.

(...)has a point in his analysis of Dutch culture. It is no coincidence that the collapse of Western civilisation, complete with political assassinations, is most visible in the country which in the past three decades has taken secularization, multiculturalism, tolerance of alternative lifestyles, drug abuse and other fads to its furthest extremes. The murders of Pim Fortuyn and Theo van Gogh have led to some Dutch soul-searching. Voters have shifted dramatically to the right, but the collapse of Dutch society is most visible in its emigration figures. Since 2003 emigration exceeds immigration: 110,235 people (mostly Dutch natives) left the Netherlands last year, compared to 94,019 people (many of them Muslims) moving in. In the first half of this year 53,808 people moved out, compared to 40,842 moving in. To lose 100,000 natives a year is a lot for a country of 16 million, one million of whom already are Muslim immigrants. The emigrants are leaving for Western countries such as Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Scandinavia and the United States.

Source: <b>Brussels Journal: The sinking Dutchman</b>

Despite all the Holland bashing going on, it is still a good country to live in. Not worse or better then France, Germany, Spain, the UK or Ireland. Problems with 2nd generation immigrants are not unique, i suppose. We will have to face to challenges and I am sure Holland is making progress. "Fresh" imported brides are now forced to learn Dutch, many islamic girls refuse to marry some distant relative from the old motherland, and their participation at university level education is growing rapidly.

By the way, let's get back to the beginning of the topic. One of the arrested young Muslims was Samir A. The police now announced that they have found a videotape in his appartment. In the video message, he says goodbye to his friends and family. The tape lasts for eight minutes, and he referes to his 'deed', which obviously did not happen yet. He will be accused of planning a terrorist act.

In a 2003 arrest, police officers found in Samir's house: blueprints of the Borssele nuclear power plant and Schiphol Amsterdam Airport, and several materials which can be combined to become explosives. (fertilizer, hydrochloric acid, etcetera). Samir is now 19 years old, and born and raised in West-Amsterdam, where he finished his secondary education.

[rogerhb]

Since 2003 emigration exceeds immigration: 110,235 people (mostly Dutch natives) left the Netherlands last year, compared to 94,019 people (many of them Muslims) moving in. In the first half of this year 53,808 people moved out, compared to 40,842 moving in. To lose 100,000 natives a year is a lot for a country of 16 million, one million of whom already are Muslim immigrants.

Reverse colonisation! After centuries of building empires the overflow from those former colonies now floods into the land of the former masters.

Oh, the irony.

[JayBee]

Reverse colonisation! After centuries of building empires the overflow from those former colonies now floods into the land of the former masters.

Oh, the irony.

I do hope a big hairy Maori sticks it up you.

Oh, the pain.