[Olaf]

A very intersting interview and discussion with activist and author Derrick Jensen; Discusses oil depletion as well as other societal problems Energy Bulletin

[sheilach]

From what I hear from our so called "leaders", the strategy for the decline in oil and natural gas will be "the last man standing".

The US will use it's military might to seize control of "it's vital interests" in oil and natural gas and as fuel prices rise, use force and fear to keep the people complient and obedient.

Deaths from cold, heat and hunger will be shushed up and only "good" news will be aired.

There will be desent eventualy as costs rise out of control and more people suffer, then all those newly built concentration camps will come in handy.

All we can do is try to prepare ourselves now for a world with less energy by having a bycycle,trike, a garden and hand tools enough to do home repairs and garden.

Get rid of your "dirt blower", power lawn mower, SUV's, big trucks, and other unecessary power tools and vehicles.
Get rid of the lawn too while your at it.

Buy/get open pollenated seeds and tubers like potatoes, if possible, have some small milk,meat and egg producing animals.
Learn how to save your crop and seeds.

Buy camping equipment now before the cost rises as demand grows for "emergency" supplies, have lots of nice warm blankets and clothing so when the power does go out you won't be left freezing in the dark.

Don't expect help from the government, they will be the problem not the solution in this case.

Be sure to have guns,ammo, bows and arrows, cross bows and the knowledge to build traps,bows and arrows, spears, pit falls, snares and other nasty deterents to theft or for self defence.

The sooner you can prepare yourself for the coming crisis, the better set you will be to weather the storm.

If your stuck in a big, northern overpopulated sprawling city, - good luck.

Oh yeh, and buy gold!

[cartz]

I can strongly recommend all of Derrick's books. Best place to start are either 'A Language Older Than Words' or 'The Culture of Make Believe'.

These books brilliantly articulate the problems of civilisation. It was reading Derrick along with the likes of 'Ishmael' by Daniel Quinn that gave me the desire to see civilisation crumble.

Peak Oil becomes a big positive when you are coming from an anti-civilisation perspective

[Olaf]

I have read " A Language Older than Words" and was very impressed with it. I too started with reading Quinn's "Ishmael" related books as well as "The Story of B" which I found to be very insightful. While I can not say that I completely look forward to a collapse (because I do not believe it will be a particularly pleasant adjustment and holds lots of dangers) I do certainly see a need for a shift to a sustainable way of living not being practiced by the majority of cultures in the world today.

I continue to look for ways that I can adjust both in my mentality and my every day approach to life and existence.

Peak oil, it appears, will force these changes onto societies whether they want them or not. I would much rather be one of those fortunate souls that will get to be around after the dust has settled, but such is our lot, and we must do what we can for ourseleves and others. Over time, "memes" will be changed and the people of the world will have to adjust, or we will go the way of the Dodo.

I was struck by Derrick Jensen's apparent growing militance, which I had not strongly detected in his book that I read. It appears he too is adjusting and realizing that time for our culture is growing short.


Olaf

[mgibbons19]

I read listening to the land when it came out, and for a long time it was my credo. Then something changed - I don't know what. And now it occurs to me that this kind of fellow is every bit as dangerous as a fanatical Christian. It's great that he wants to bring meaning into ppl's lives. Recognizing that there are things worth fighting for. But at the same time, that also means that if you don't agree, you are one of those who need a poke in the nose from him.

Now how is that different from some other moral entrepeneur forcing their agenda down my throat. His is trees and birds and gaia. others it is unborn babies and christ, and still others it is allah.

[Olaf]

To me, the ideas he espouses are just a single way to approach things, it will appeal to some and not to others. Some people will disagree completely, and other, such as myself, will take pieces of it, and incorporate it into my thinking and approach to life. All of this, as mGbbons19 points out, are subject to change with an evolving view point. I think the evolving view point is critical, because it indicates an in-depth introspective look at the issues, and an openess to change. As the author Daniel Quinn would point out, there is no one right way.

I agree that it is a form of radicalism, as various religions can be as an example, but it is a radicalism with a fundamental idea of change behind it. However one views Jensen's methods, I do not believe "radicalism" in general is a bad thing. Paradigm shifts are almost always initiated by radicals in one form or another. Are we not as"peak-oilers" radicals in a sense?

Olaf

[cartz]

I can understand an initall reaction suggesting that anti-civ viewpoints are on a similar level to Christians or whoever wanting to impose their world views.

However there are big differences. Anti-civ is a response to the incredible violence that civilisation imposes upon the world. It is a repsonse to the terms that have been imposed upon all life by civilisation. So there is the desire to rid ourselves of that.

It is not a prescription for how to live your life. There is no single right way to live. However I think it is fair to say you shouldn't live by inflicting violence upon others. It is impossible to be civilised and not do this.

A very simple analogy. If I wanted to live my life by enslaving your family you wouldn't defend my right to do that.

Reading 'The Culture of Make Believe' gives an incredible depth to this that simple internet postings cannot.

cartz.

[azreal60]

I can directly link my journey that brought me here to first reading Ishmael, then the Story of B, and My Ishmael. Infact, I think alot of people can see the kinds of issues like peak oil illistraighted in that book. It may not be a direct link, but its definately there.

[JohnDenver]

cartz,
How did you feel about the Twin Towers (WTCs in NY) going down? Do you feel that was a positive from an anti-civ viewpoint? Do you think the twin towers were a symbol of the violence imposed by Western civilization on the world, and therefore that violence against them was just?

[cartz]

JD, my feelings about the WTC attacks are pretty much in line with Ward Churchill's. You can find an essay by Ward on this subject at: http://www.kersplebedeb.com/mystuff/s11/churchill.html

However I don't see the attacks as related to anti-civ in any way. It's more a clash of civilisations.

[bart]

I was saddened to read Derrick Jensen getting started on violence as a means of social change.

It's a bad road to head down.

The Weather Underground, the Brigate Rosse in Italy, the Bader-Meinhof group in Germany (Red Army Faction), and many other groups in the late 60s and the 70s had a similar genesis among idealistic young people, outraged by the Vietnam war, racism, exploitation, etc.

Before one takes that road (or suggests that others take it) please -- read the history of that period.

Also, check out the Marxist (socialist or communist) critique of ultra-left violence. This issue has been debated on the anti-capitalist left since the anarchist terrorists of the 19th century.

BTW, many of Jensen's essays and interviews are available at his website. See, for example, http://www.derrickjensen.org/essay.html and http://www.derrickjensen.org/miscell.html .

[JohnDenver]

Derrick Jensen strikes me as an ingrate.

No one is forcing him to live in the midst of civilization, or to use its products, like the Internet. And yet he does. It's a little like living in your parents house and eating their food, while griping about how all they care about is money and how you want to kill them.

All the talk about violence is just a shtick to sell books and get attention. Thankfully, he doesn't have the balls to truly direct or take action.

As for his theories about violence and industrial society, I would argue exactly the opposite. He seems to think, for example, that "civilization" is the source of sexual abuse, rape and incest. In fact, I believe it is exactly the opposite. It is only because we have a massive, fossil-fuel surplus that we are able to even care about things like "women's issues". Society has never been more just than it is today, and we owe it all to the plenty which industry has given us. Take that plenty away, and a lot of liberal social engineering is going to go into the garbage can.

[JohnDenver]

However I don't see the attacks as related to anti-civ in any way.

But cartz, aren't anti-civs like Jensen advocating tactics like blowing up dams? I hate to be really obtuse here, but isn't that exactly the sort of thing that Al Qaeda would do?

[JohnDenver]

cartz, I'm not trying to pick on you in particular, but I want to make my point a little clearer.

Suppose I pick up the newspaper tomorrow morning, and sure enough, a big dam has been blown up.
It turns out that it was done by Islamic terrorists. The perpetrators are regarded as scum of the earth like Timothy McVeigh or Mohammed Atta. Vicious terrorists who need to be hunted down and killed.

Okay, now suppose I pick up the newpaper tomorrow morning, and sure enough, a big dam has been blown up. It turns out it was done by Derrick Jensen. Now it's "cool"?

I don't get it. You want to distance yourself from terrorism, while at the same time lionizing a man who shamelessly advocates acts of terrorism. Is that honest?

[cartz]

JD, that is similar to saying that a demonstration by fascists is just the same as an anti-war demonstration. The difference is in the politics and intentions behind the actions.

I am not trying to distance myself from 'terrorism'. If you read the Ward Churchill essay link that I provided you would understand that.

I disagree with your assertions that "society has never been more just than it has today". But we'll have to agree to disagree on that as it is getting off topic and not something that can be done justice via a few internet postings.

[JohnDenver]

JD, that is similar to saying that a demonstration by fascists is just the same as an anti-war demonstration.

Actually, it's a little different, because a demonstration is a non-violent activity. Derrick Jensen isn't advocating demonstrations; he's advocating violence. So it's actually more similar to saying that fascists killing people is just the same as anti-war types killing people.

The difference is in the politics and intentions behind the actions.

Personally, I reject violence as a means of effecting change. I don't care what the politics or intentions are. I believe people should have the right to democratically run their own affairs without interference from self-appointed, elitist storm troopers from the left or right.

I am not trying to distance myself from 'terrorism'. If you read the Ward Churchill essay link that I provided you would understand that.

Actually, I did read it, and you're right. You're not trying to distance yourself from terrorism. You support it.

[cartz]

JD, obviously we're not going to agree on these sort of things. You can judge my opinions as you wish.

There are just a few things I want to clarify.

Neither Derrick nor I would consider ourselves as a part of the left. Both left and right are civilised perspectives and both base their ideologies on production. Anti-civ perspectives are highly critical of the left.

I do not equate property destruction with violence.

I agree wholeheartedly with you that "people should have the right to democratically run their own affairs without interference from self-appointed, elitist storm troopers from the left or right."

[ralfy]

Derrick Jensen - Endgame (complete lecture in one file)